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Post by ET on May 20, 2020 8:52:39 GMT -5
Many of us feel that we should be able to just stuff a particular load down the bore and expect same results all the time. I‘ve learned it doesn’t work that way. There is a lot of truth about “changing one variable at a time”. A variable that changes is load resistance (bore fit tightness) with temp change. In order to produce previous results, you need to maintain previous load conditions. When I first started this new adventure with SML I felt I could take 3 consecutive shot groups. In cooler weather I would get 2-shots start a group and then the 3rd would move away. As ambient temp got hotter my groups began to open even more. I didn’t understand what was happening then but today I believe I do. The firmness of a sabot changes with temp change and this effects the load resistance which in turn effects the powder burn rate. This in turn effects the amount of pressure generated that also effects velocity. Change in velocity then alters the relationship to the sweet spot. When hunting season approaches it is recommended to check your load in the temp range you will be shooting in. No mystery here why this is recommended. Now a lot of SML shooters have gone sabot-less and I can’t blame them for wanting to remove the sabot factor. Using a sabot requires more understanding and patience to use it for best results. I don’t have a problem with this as my goal is to produce an accurate load for deer hunting. I think of this as a one-shot deal to bring down a deer without worrying how my load is going to respond. Now my quest is to find ideal loads for specific bullets with different powders through powder burn rate studies. In my possession I have the equipment to explore many possibilities but I also have one mystery. While going through pictures in my 10ML-II file I came across a picture of another modified BP in 2010 that I forgot about. It’s a 2-stage recess of 3/8 x 5/16”. Now I’m looking to see if I still even have it.  It will be a long time before I get bored exploring many avenues. |
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Post by billc on May 22, 2020 14:48:21 GMT -5
It's good to see you are still having fun !!
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Post by ET on May 22, 2020 19:52:38 GMT -5
Hey Bill
Part of this is fun also another part is a developed hunger for more learning and understanding. With this combination of attraction I'm hooked, chuckle.
I also believe there are a few surprises yet to surface.
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Post by billc on May 31, 2020 11:16:42 GMT -5
Yes, the quest for knowledge and understanding is a truly noble quest!! Enjoy the journey.
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Post by reloader22 on May 31, 2020 17:40:27 GMT -5
a few points on the Savage, no long winded explanations
1) H4198, HARV CR sabots and .458 bullets of almost any kind shoots great at full throttle.
2) 4759 and just about any sabot with 30-35 gr and bullets 250-300 gr are great 100 yds loads that kill with little meat damage
3) I keep my plug clean
4) A barrel condom, like the tip of a rubber glove with a rubber band around it, will keep your powder dry
5) with condom in place I have left gun loaded weeks, months and a full year with no ill-effect on shooting that load at a later date.
6) Book loads with 40+ gr of 4759, N110, 5744 blow sabots bad with no waiting time. Not so much with H4198
7) 4198 has always went bang for me in very cold conditions, heavily charged and tightly packed and protected on barrel end
Fun stuff
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Post by ET on Jun 1, 2020 6:59:40 GMT -5
a few points on the Savage, no long winded explanations 1) H4198, HARV CR sabots and .458 bullets of almost any kind shoots great at full throttle. 2) 4759 and just about any sabot with 30-35 gr and bullets 250-300 gr are great 100 yds loads that kill with little meat damage 3) I keep my plug clean 4) A barrel condom, like the tip of a rubber glove with a rubber band around it, will keep your powder dry 5) with condom in place I have left gun loaded weeks, months and a full year with no ill-effect on shooting that load at a later date. 6) Book loads with 40+ gr of 4759, N110, 5744 blow sabots bad with no waiting time. Not so much with H4198 7) 4198 has always went bang for me in very cold conditions, heavily charged and tightly packed and protected on barrel end Fun stuff Reloader22 Thanks for providing the above info. This informs me what to look for when testing. As I've been out of the SML game a few years I don't have a starting point for 4198 and 250gr bullet. If I may impose on you for a powder load valve this would greatly help for range visits. Instead of looking for a starting point I can move into load evaluation immediately. Some might be uncomfortable sharing load info on the board so if a PM is possible? |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 1, 2020 14:41:32 GMT -5
4198 is REALLY slow for a 250gr bullet. Even with a 300gr you should be burning 65+ grains of powder in a 50cal. I would not even use N120 or Re7 for a 250gr. RBinAR covered this a few times IIRC. Ive burned a bunch of N110 and the mistake most make is using too much. 39-41gr of N110 provides very good performance and rock solid reliability unless your bore is as rough as a cob. That is my goto load in my Douglas 50 and its never blown a sabot.
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Post by ET on Jun 1, 2020 16:21:03 GMT -5
4198 is REALLY slow for a 250gr bullet. Even with a 300gr you should be burning 65+ grains of powder in a 50cal. I would not even use N120 or Re7 for a 250gr. RBinAR covered this a few times IIRC. Ive burned a bunch of N110 and the mistake most make is using too much. 39-41gr of N110 provides very good performance and rock solid reliability unless your bore is as rough as a cob. That is my goto load in my Douglas 50 and its never blown a sabot. I have a few questions here about 4198. Did RB specify whether he was referring to the older stick version of 4198 or the newer short cut extruded 4198? Why did RB suggest trying h322 which is slower than 4198? He also comment you would find unburned granules. There are unknowns with powders and their response when you alter the burn rate and that's what I'm exploring. I wouldn't be to quick to make certain judgements from past comments. After all 4227 was thought of as an unreliable powder in the 50 by many. That's not what I'm seeing in the 50 with my testing. |
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Post by reloader22 on Jun 2, 2020 5:06:41 GMT -5
ET, I used 74-80 gr H4198 with 250's. The high end netted 2,800 fps. My current load for power is 70 gr with a 325 FTX at 2,500. If you do some research from 15 yrs ago, H4198 was HIGHLY recommended by RB in the .50, and as someone said, you do not want to down-load this powder because of its burn rate.
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Post by ET on Jun 2, 2020 6:10:12 GMT -5
ET, I used 74-80 gr H4198 with 250's. The high end netted 2,800 fps. My current load for power is 70 gr with a 325 FTX at 2,500. If you do some research from 15 yrs ago, H4198 was HIGHLY recommended by RB in the .50, and as someone said, you do not want to down-load this powder because of its burn rate. Thanks for providing that info and I have made note of the load values. Boy that load must have quite a bang to it. I can understand why there is less sabot disruption because of the softer impact from a slower pressure build up. When I get to testing 4198 I decided to start with 75gr with 250 to see what the PT shows and work from there. Then let the test results speak for themselves. |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 2, 2020 8:51:38 GMT -5
4198 is REALLY slow for a 250gr bullet. Even with a 300gr you should be burning 65+ grains of powder in a 50cal. I would not even use N120 or Re7 for a 250gr. RBinAR covered this a few times IIRC. Ive burned a bunch of N110 and the mistake most make is using too much. 39-41gr of N110 provides very good performance and rock solid reliability unless your bore is as rough as a cob. That is my goto load in my Douglas 50 and its never blown a sabot. I have a few questions here about 4198. Did RB specify whether he was referring to the older stick version of 4198 or the newer short cut extruded 4198? Why did RB suggest trying h322 which is slower than 4198? He also comment you would find unburned granules. There are unknowns with powders and their response when you alter the burn rate and that's what I'm exploring. I wouldn't be to quick to make certain judgements from past comments. After all 4227 was thought of as an unreliable powder in the 50 by many. That's not what I'm seeing in the 50 with my testing. Funny thing about 4227, i know of people that use it in a NULA without fail. The answer is in the breach plug. Super short and the primer seals about as good as you will ever get with a 209. That is also why some powders work well and some dont for some people. Just look as the old SMI load data. They used plenty of 4198 but none of the best loads ive seen mentioned on the MML forum were using it. A couple guys used it in the NULAs but 2200ish fps with 55gr is a joke. Why burn that much powder for such poor speed. Three more grains of n120 would crank out 2440fps in mine and N110 would do that easily with far less powder. |
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Post by ET on Jun 2, 2020 12:25:52 GMT -5
GMB54-120
Over the years from your experience you have formed your own opinion as to what you feel works best with powder loads in a 50. You are entitled to share your opinion. But as often seen not everyone shares the same opinion. Some shooters want options for more velocity for flatter and further shooting range. My testing is to find what I feel are ideal loads for my 10ML-II for me as well as to reveal what pressure responses develop from different loads.
Using a slower powder obviously requires more powder for performance gain. Here a shooter has to decide if the additional gain is worth the additional powder. It’s their choice.
As stated before my established pressure limit will be 40K and if it crawls above this then this is my cue to back off. Sure, there is additional room for more pressure and if someone wants to explore, they are on their own. But they will have an idea where the 40K line will start.
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Post by sw on Jun 4, 2020 21:29:54 GMT -5
H4227 was notorious for misfires in the 10ML (poorly sealing modules). 5744, 4759 and VV110 were more reliable. Most people I knew who went from 10MLs to 10ML2s didn’t try to shoot 4227 since they were already soured on it. I don’t know of problems it had with the ML2.
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Post by mrbuck on Jun 4, 2020 22:04:36 GMT -5
Reviewing my targets I found two groups fired with a Blue MLII restocked in a Savage pistol grip laminated stock . The date was 9-22-12 with a temperature of 58 degrees with just a slight breeze with overcast conditions . A 300gr. Hornady XTP in a MMP short sabot was used . A charge of 46.0grs. of IMR4227 was ignited by a Federal 209M primer and produced a .698" group at 100 yards . The velocity was 1988fps at 10 feet from the muzzle . Close to 2000fps at the muzzle .
The next day with the same weather conditions I tried 48.0grs. of IMR4227 with the same components . I had two shots touching and of course flipped a shot out of the two that were touching opening the group to 1.380" ! Still not too bad ! The velocity increased to 2089fps at 10 feet from the muzzle , maybe close to 2100fps at the actual muzzle .
I never revisited this combination but would not hesitate to hunt woods deer or bear with either load .
Enjoy your experiments !
Chris
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Post by ET on Jun 5, 2020 7:12:26 GMT -5
H4227 was notorious for misfires in the 10ML (poorly sealing modules). 5744, 4759 and VV110 were more reliable. Most people I knew who went from 10MLs to 10ML2s didn’t try to shoot 4227 since they were already soured on it. I don’t know of problems it had with the ML2. Thanks for the additional info on the 4227 legacy that I hadn't considered. For me I will eventually develop a few good working loads with this powder. One around 2300fps for the 250 FTX for closer range and one for the 250 Mono at 2500fps or better. As much as I want to get started on load development I need to get base lines for other powders. Here too I want to observe the response when ignition level is altered. Lots of interesting times ahead. |
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Post by ET on Jun 5, 2020 7:42:33 GMT -5
Reviewing my targets I found two groups fired with a Blue MLII restocked in a Savage pistol grip laminated stock . The date was 9-22-12 with a temperature of 58 degrees with just a slight breeze with overcast conditions . A 300gr. Hornady XTP in a MMP short sabot was used . A charge of 46.0grs. of IMR4227 was ignited by a Federal 209M primer and produced a .698" group at 100 yards . The velocity was 1988fps at 10 feet from the muzzle . Close to 2000fps at the muzzle . The next day with the same weather conditions I tried 48.0grs. of IMR4227 with the same components . I had two shots touching and of course flipped a shot out of the two that were touching opening the group to 1.380" ! Still not too bad ! The velocity increased to 2089fps at 10 feet from the muzzle , maybe close to 2100fps at the actual muzzle . I never revisited this combination but would not hesitate to hunt woods deer or bear with either load . Enjoy your experiments ! Chris Part of what you describe for group response I experienced with 4759 as this was the first choice for 10ML-II before it's discontinuation. Now 4227 is showing similar results when compression and proper load resistance is applied. I know the feeling of having a 3-shot group where 2 are basically touching and the 3rd one moving outside of the group because I pulled that shot, chuckle. Thanks for sharing your 4227 load and experience with a 300gr bullet. As for my experiments the beat goes on. |
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Post by mrbuck on Jun 5, 2020 7:59:16 GMT -5
When I began to plan my retirement , I stocked stocked up shooting supplies . 4759 was just leaving gun shop shelves so I picked up " a few " pounds . I use 4759 in another MLII , a stainless thumbhole stock model , with 250gr. bullets .
Chris
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 5, 2020 10:48:15 GMT -5
H4227 was notorious for misfires in the 10ML (poorly sealing modules). 5744, 4759 and VV110 were more reliable. Most people I knew who went from 10MLs to 10ML2s didn’t try to shoot 4227 since they were already soured on it. I don’t know of problems it had with the ML2. I tried 4227 in my 10MLII ONCE. Don't recall the powder charge that was behind a saboted 250gr SST. CCIM primer was used. The saboted bullet was a tight fit. Five or six times I attempted to get the stuff to ignite after re-seating the bullet with no success. This was on a barrel in which other loads had been fired, so there was no barrel oil problem. Also tried using it in a Ruger .45 Colt using 200-225 bullets. Many unburned granules resulted. Apparently heavier bullets are needed for a complete burn, or even ignition in the .50 MLII. The powder was a mess to clean up in the area between action and end of barrel. In case ya missed it, I got soured on 4227 REAL quick. There are much more efficient, reliable, cleaner powders out there. |
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Post by ET on Jun 5, 2020 15:32:25 GMT -5
Dannoboone
I don’t doubt what you stated and can see why it left a sour taste.
I need to experience first hand at what is happening for evaluation.
I will definitely monitor consistency for peak pressure and if there is any erratic rise times appearing.
Whatever problems may exist with 4227 I need to find them. After all this is what the powder testing is all about.
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