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Post by joelmoney on Jul 19, 2018 12:13:33 GMT -5
How many of you have read his studies or watched his videos? If you have never heard of him you may want to take a look because you are not going to hear what he has to say in main stream archery media.
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Post by Dave W on Jul 19, 2018 14:56:12 GMT -5
Specifically?
Never read his work but read plenty of discussions debating it.
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 19, 2018 17:21:06 GMT -5
I find them very interesting to read. Lots of people are nay sayers but it’s the only studies on arrow lethality I know of. He certainly contradicts many modern archery held truths. I have tried to prove some of his conclusions wrong but have not been successful. I know bows transfer energy much better now than they did in the 80’s when I started. The videos back then rarely did an arrow not pass threw. Now it’s rare to see a pass threw on video. I started reading his stuff with disbelief but wanted to know what other side had to say. Now I am the other side. He does a demonstration using drinking straw arrows that I still can’t explain.
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Post by Dave W on Jul 19, 2018 22:58:42 GMT -5
Hunting shows really aren’t my thing but I have seen a number of them with no pass through, no idea what their hunting setups are. I don’t use real heavy arrows but I setup for shots ideally under 30yds, never had an arrow not pass through in that window and there have been plenty, but I have never hit shoulder either. Always used 80# bows and 400+ grain arrows until recently so my KE and momentum were probably way more than adequate.
If I was using a 50# bow I would definitely have a good COC head on the tip of the arrow. Friend of ours passed through a doe at 90yds, my son witnessed it, shooter doesn’t use 600gr arrows but he had a Solid broadhead on the tip and a 70# bow. Videoed a big mature buck kill, arrow didn’t even look like it slowed down when it came out the other side at 40ish yds.
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 20, 2018 13:49:03 GMT -5
I am glad you have never had an arrow not hit were you wanted and never lost an animal. I have and if I had known of these factors I think I would have recovered these animals. You touched many of the factors that Ashby calls “factors of penetration” it sounds as though you have found a set up that works well for you and that’s great. The primary reason I made the post was for all those who don’t have the experience you do. Would you be willing to share your set up? I shoot a cross bow my arrow is almost 800grs, Simmons Tree Shark broadhead, and a Lumenoc.
The broadhead is not a Ashby recomeded broadhead due to it being a convex cutting edge. The Luminoc wouldn’t be recommend either due to it adding weight to back of arrow. I do chose to foot my arrows and try to keep a high FOC arrow. None of the things in his studies are mandatory just shows how certain changes can make an arrow that penetrates better. All my archery stands are set up for under 20yard shots so arrow weight means little to me. If I were trying to shoot further I might shoot a lighter arrow. A good hit most any commercially available arrow setups will work on whitetail but I want one that works when things don’t go right. I think reading his studies would be very useful for young, women, and others who have to shoot low poundage. With that said I shot a deer with an 80 pound vertical bow that was stopped cold by a front leg bone at 11 yards.
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Post by smokepolehall on Jul 21, 2018 2:43:15 GMT -5
I also hunt with a crossbow, last yr i shot a 9 pt. 35 yd shot right side n abit of angle coming towards me. My arrow went into him then turned n angled back into the left hind qtr. He went est. 55 yds n piled up. When he went down he broke the B-head shank off n the arrow came out while i dragged him to load him on my 3 wheeler, B-head hit right lung n through liver. B-head was recovered in the left back leg bone. Plenty of power n penetration, why arrow went back instead of through the other lung n out will be a mystery
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Post by edge on Jul 21, 2018 8:38:52 GMT -5
I have only found a few situations when the arrow does not sail right through...assuming a sharp broadhead!
I never hunt with a broadhead that has been shot into a target without being resharpened.
Hit the spine or any big bone, or a movable bone like the scapula, OR the leg moves and hits the arrow passing through.
An arrow is not a bullet with massive momentum, it can't smash bone and keep moving in a straight line.
edge.
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Post by smokepolehall on Jul 21, 2018 10:28:45 GMT -5
It was a Mech. B-head n i think it shifted angles hitting the rib. Hit was behind shoulder blade
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Post by Dave W on Jul 23, 2018 8:01:26 GMT -5
I am glad you have never had an arrow not hit were you wanted and never lost an animal. I have and if I had known of these factors I think I would have recovered these animals. You touched many of the factors that Ashby calls “factors of penetration” it sounds as though you have found a set up that works well for you and that’s great. The primary reason I made the post was for all those who don’t have the experience you do. Would you be willing to share your set up? I shoot a cross bow my arrow is almost 800grs, Simmons Tree Shark broadhead, and a Lumenoc. The broadhead is not a Ashby recomeded broadhead due to it being a convex cutting edge. The Luminoc wouldn’t be recommend either due to it adding weight to back of arrow. I do chose to foot my arrows and try to keep a high FOC arrow. None of the things in his studies are mandatory just shows how certain changes can make an arrow that penetrates better. All my archery stands are set up for under 20yard shots so arrow weight means little to me. If I were trying to shoot further I might shoot a lighter arrow. A good hit most any commercially available arrow setups will work on whitetail but I want one that works when things don’t go right. I think reading his studies would be very useful for young, women, and others who have to shoot low poundage. With that said I shot a deer with an 80 pound vertical bow that was stopped cold by a front leg bone at 11 yards. Buddy hit one in the shoulder one time, I was close enough to hear it hit, sounded like two 2x4s getting slapped together! Rain gear caused him to slap his forearm with the string and make a bad shot, poor penetration and the rain caused us to lose that deer. I have gut shot a few, lost my first gut shot deer, but I stay away from shoulder shots, I want two holes! Back in the day I used thin walled stiff shafts, higher FOC, NAP Thunderhead 100's and 80# DW bows with hatchet cams. I tried what I believe were the first expandable broadheads, Punchcutters. Me and a relative shot two deer with them, mine was about 40yds, neither of us got pass throughs, they went to the scrap heap after that. |
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 24, 2018 16:58:42 GMT -5
I have only found a few situations when the arrow does not sail right through...assuming a sharp broadhead! I never hunt with a broadhead that has been shot into a target without being resharpened. Hit the spine or any big bone, or a movable bone like the scapula, OR the leg moves and hits the arrow passing through. An arrow is not a bullet with massive momentum, it can't smash bone and keep moving in a straight line. edge. Edge I might have to disagree on your last statement. With the right head and arrow arrows can continue a staight line even when heavy bones are encountered Last year to prove this to myself I shot a doe directly in on side humorus hoping to hit off side humorus. The broadhead made it threw both and out the skin on off side. I feel if I had shot a single bevel broadhead like a Centaur Archery Battle axe instead of a Simmons Tree Shark the arrow would have come out the other side. |
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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2018 6:05:03 GMT -5
Actually the arrow has much more momentum compared to a bullet. The higher sectional density of the arrow allows it to penetrate deeper than any bullet.
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Post by edge on Jul 25, 2018 18:31:22 GMT -5
LOL, I challenge anyone to stand behind a 4 foot cube of foam and have an arrow shot at the target, and then the same with a 30-06...please fill in edge as your next of kin before that rifle gets shot!
Hit the whitetail in the spine with an arrow, and the majority of times the arrow will not continue completely through...I have yet to see a 150 grain bullet stopped by the spine.
Perhaps it does sometimes, but not nearly to the extent as an arrow!
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 25, 2018 19:29:59 GMT -5
My point exactly people shoot too light of an arrow. Ashby says if you keep integrity of arrow, head and weigh over 650grs it's going threw the first bone encountered. I have yet to see 1 bone stop a 2" broadhead and 800gr arrow. If I shot a smaller single bevel head I don't think a deer could stop the arrow. Ashby trying to get a deer pelvis to stop a Grizzly head he had to dullen the head ans shoot it out of a 43 pound bow.
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Post by sw on Jul 27, 2018 7:23:49 GMT -5
A deer is made up of soft areas and hard areas. Arrows/broadheads of any design have trouble going through the hard areas. Very low energy setups can go thru soft areas with efficient broadheads. Smaller, efficient fixed broadheads (Slick Tricks, Muzzy, Excal Bolt Cutters, many 2 blade fixed) sail through heart/lung areas. Many expandibles do also though they require more energy, but not significantly more.
Human bodies are not designed to shoot high poundage vertical bows, at least not for many decades. High poundage vertical bows eventually fill the ranks of crossbow hunters, at least historically. An efficient 50-60# compound, vertical bow shooting 7-8g/# with a good, efficient fixed broadhead should be able to passthrough any well hit white tail out past 80 yards (energy just doesn’t bleed off as quickly as many think). With a modern crossbow, more than 2 1/2 times the energy remains at 100 yds to cleanly pass through.
Those ridiculous “hunting” shows w/o passthrus, are intentionally done with high resistant broadheads and very light setups.
Some larger expandible broadheads have inconsistent performances. A classic example is the NAP FOC with its 3” cut and fairly high entrance resistance. . Hit ribs with both blades on entrance and expect massive internal damage w/o a passthrus nor much of a blood trail. Miss ribs on entrance and get passthrus and unbelievable blood trails. A plain Jane Spitfire (3 blade 1 1/2” ) will normally go thru regardless as will most 2” 2 blade expandibles.
Many studies have show that recovery rates for modern expandibles are a little higher than with fixed broadheads. Most crossbows perform better with most expandibles than with the average fixed broadhead. Major exceptions exist.
I enjoy reading Dr Ashby’s Studies/writings. Likewise, he’s really helped open the doors to archery inclusion. We should all appreciate these contributions.
White Tails/Black bear are different game than larger African game. I’d rather have pinpoint accuracy at longer ranges than massive momentum that might passthrough hard bone hits. But, neither end of the spectrum serves all cases. I think it’s best to read his writings, consider your own situation, type of arrow launcher (traditional vbow, compound vbow, crossbow, game hunted and geography. What’s best for antelope in Wyoming verses dense southeast forests with white tails might greatly affect one’s choice of arrow/broadhead selection.
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 27, 2018 20:23:16 GMT -5
SW I agree. Good info use what you need to meet your needs. I personally like a setup that is going to be quickly lethal even if I mess up.
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Post by sw on Jul 28, 2018 14:38:17 GMT -5
SW I agree. Good info use what you need to meet your needs. I personally like a setup that is going to be quickly lethal even if I mess up. So much depends on hunting areas. I hunt open soybean fields, long shooting lanes, etc.. So, Imy alternatives are to hunt short with a massive broadhead and shaft with untold momentum, or hunt with a set up that will be lethal except for really hard bone hit. Over 20 years ago, I decided I’d shoot thru a scapula on a white tail. Huge 10 pt, about 22 yards, Pearson Flame 82# 28 1/2” draw, 2219, 145g Bear Super Razorhead. Knocked the deer off it’s feet. Got up, took off with about all the arrow sticking out. No blood trail. 2 weeks later, I killed a huge 10 Pt with 10 ML2, 300 XTPor SST, 45g VV-110. Right thru the scapula. DRT. Right beside the bullet hole was a reusable Super Razor Head. Totally healed over. Now about 300g more and a more appropriate BH might work. However with my flat shooting set ups for long range, I’m not getting losses. So, here I’ll stay even though I respect his set ups. If I hunted Africa, things might be different. |
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Post by edge on Jul 29, 2018 8:07:01 GMT -5
IMO, the scapula is three different bones ( type ). The relatively thin section that is easily seem moving up and down as the deer walks, then the ridge that runs down the middle, then the head that is more akin to the femur. The other problem for an arrow, is the scapula is almost always moving. An arrow can easily pass through the thin part and keep zipping along...UNLESS the scapula is moving! IMO, an arrow goes through things so easily, is because the broadhead opens a wound channel, with lots of blood and fat for lubrication, and the shaft barely touches anything. Now, let's have that same broadhead pass through the scapula, but the animal starts to run, the bone clamps the shaft between the ribs and the scapula like a vise or pair of scissors...that arrow is going nowhere...IMO, IMO  edge. |
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Post by Dave W on Jul 29, 2018 8:35:47 GMT -5
Joel, if you ever listen to podcasts, check out Kifarucast, think you might enjoy it.
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 29, 2018 22:28:23 GMT -5
I normally don't but I'll give it a listen.
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Post by joelmoney on Jul 29, 2018 22:31:06 GMT -5
I normally don't but I'll give it a listen.
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