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Post by mike.dawson on Jul 24, 2009 13:56:47 GMT -5
Was over on his site last night and saw and read his tale about 2 Savage 10 ML ll blowing up at the breech plug threads. He goes on about the breech plug and how Savage cheapened the plug which in his opinion has caused the gun to explode. It appears the rifles were SS and not blue steel. Did Savage come up with an answer as to what happened?
Mike
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Post by pposey on Jul 24, 2009 14:33:26 GMT -5
operator failure,,,,
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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2009 14:45:26 GMT -5
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Post by KerryB on Jul 24, 2009 17:57:34 GMT -5
This entire series of events has been hashed and re-hashed soooooooo many times over the years! I am confident that if Savage felt this product was unsafe in any way that they would correct the problem in newly released versions, issue a recall, or simply drop the product line. None of these things have happened and I'm betting it isn't going to happen. If it ain't a problem............you don't fix it! If Savage truly sells so few of these rifles as TB claims, then it wouldn't be financially feasible to continue selling them full well knowing that they could be looking at future similar law suits which would eat up the profit margin on such a small product line. No matter how you weigh all of the information or how many different ways you look at it..........it just never seems to add up in the end. Always an interesting topic that i enjoy hearing different views on, but i have accepted that i'll probably never know what has really happened to any of these blown rifles. Just one of those mysteries of the universe! ;D
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Post by rjhans53 on Jul 24, 2009 18:36:10 GMT -5
okay lets play with that theory that there is that few out there My blued ML II is MO28466 now the only question is I'm sure the M is muzzleloader but is the O an O or a zero assuming it's a zero who can beat me
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Post by kevin k on Jul 24, 2009 18:57:49 GMT -5
mine is M009125 so i would say yours is a zero mine must have been the 9125th made under savage pre accra trigger so we need to find the newest ones from the factory. kevin.k ps mine is also blued
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Post by mike.dawson on Jul 24, 2009 19:36:19 GMT -5
Mine is M025924, blue steel, accu-trigger Mike
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Post by tcmech on Jul 24, 2009 19:45:40 GMT -5
Mine is m011163, stainless and tupperware, there has indeed been an explosion everytime I have pulled the trigger (at least since I stopped using 4227).
Seems I remember reading something about the Tobester double loading a savage and shooting it just to show how safe it was once. I could be wrong about that though.
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Post by lwh723 on Jul 25, 2009 7:26:34 GMT -5
Mine is M028795 SS Accu-Trigger. Bought new a couple of years ago.
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Post by jims on Jul 25, 2009 8:12:04 GMT -5
I have two stainless preaccutrigger models, M017470 and M011401.
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Post by KerryB on Jul 25, 2009 8:42:50 GMT -5
My Henry Ball LE #007 is an early accu-trigger model 10MLBIISS and is serial number M022597. My newest rifle is a model 10MLBTSSII with a serial number of M028896 and is probably 2 years old.
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Post by whyohe on Jul 25, 2009 13:59:16 GMT -5
i agree with kerryb. why would a company produce so "few" guns and risk all the law suites if there was a defect in it? there are so many that have them and only a few come "unglued". How many time do you hear of a CF rifle exploding? it has and does happen yet there isnt as much a big deal made out of that, why? i had a 30-06 pump gun brand new i had to send back because a sheel came apart in the chamber. the rifling came out of the gun, over maxim head space in chamber, and the barrel was loose. so you can see that you can get a bad one every once in a while. you will get this out of any mass produced item.
now im not saying that in these MLII cases that it was a manufacturer defect cause i dont know. but that it can happen and i beleave savage would make good in it if that was to be found. i just dont think IMO we should read so much into things we dont have to examine or have seem with our own eyes. SAFTEY is ALWAYS a concern. if we can look at the situation and say "ok maybe it happened this way let me look at my gun and see if i have any signs of a problem" and makes a a little more saftey cautious, then its a good thing!
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Post by Rifleman on Jul 25, 2009 16:16:18 GMT -5
I think one should take a close look at the original pictures of the original blown up rifle posted my Mr. Bridges. If you look real close, you can see copper smears on the steel. Now if you are shooting one bullet in a sabot, the bullet does not contact the bore and there is no copper wash. Of all the rounds I have fired from these rifles, I have never had any copper wash in the bore. However if one had a bore obstruction of some kind, then of course there would be failure of the sabot, bullet, bore, etc and one could assume copper would be in the bore. Load 2 xtps, and load the top bullet upside down, and you would have a self expanding bore obstruction that would could cause a bore to fail, and leave the distinct copper wash in the bore. Where there is fire there is smoke. Forget all the rhetoric, look at the evidence. Copper wash in the bore points directly to a bore obstruction of some sort.
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Post by sw on Jul 25, 2009 18:15:55 GMT -5
For the newer members on this board, I am the Savage owner/early experimenter who had an incident with my 10-ML(the one referenced in the write-up referenced above). I tested velocities/accuracy for Toby for various loads he was testing - sort of as a crosscheck. I also was testing a load told to me by a savage engineer and that Toby had been checking(47.5 and 49.5 g LG with 250 and 300g XTPs). My module exploded, damaged the barrel, my face and arm. The small grains of powder that were near the end of the bottle(ie the dregs that were at the bottom of the powder container) got thru the ventliner that I was replacing at the interval recommended in the Savage manual. Ltl Gun was wearing it much faster than the other powders though and the small particles of powder got thru the worn hole. Some food for thought: 1) 5744 does give very hi pressures compared to other powders - so can Ltl Gn, 2) ventliners were changed on # of shots vs wear limits(at least by some of us), 3) we both were testing Ltl Gn and other powders(VV-110 and 5744)at the time of our incidents(only weeks apart - we discussed them over breakfast at Cape Giradeau), 4)the 3-hole ventliner was being tested at this time, and the 3-hole ventliner could very easily become a one big hole ventliner after a few shots of 5744 or LG. If you think a Fed 209A gives a lot of flash/fast ignition , just try a 10-ML module filled with powder!! This was just a little history lesson. I love my 40 cal , RB breachplug'd PacNor but would not be concerned with the std breechplug. I do check the ventliner size though. I understand Savage's reluctance at endorsing duplex powder loading but also consider just how many gun manufacturers say to not use reloaded ammunition.
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Post by edge on Jul 25, 2009 19:05:10 GMT -5
What the heck, I'll weigh in too In our early days, long before the Old Board, there was the Original Doug's! It had 5 ( FIVE ) Pages! Yep that it 5! We posted results and when we went to page 6 the first page fell into the Internet abyss! Someone shot ( what IIRC was a ) a Gold Dot bullet and recovered it with rifling! This was shocking at the time and resulted in several of us to search for better and stronger sabots! Obviously that person would have had copper on his barrel too !!!! I will not at this time name names, but before there was a Ballistic Bridge sub base, many folks cut the fingers off of a standard sabot, and that was standard practice for HV loads! I am a cheap SOB ( Scottish heritage no doubt ), came up with using a 28 gauge base wad in its place. Actually Toby and I used them in place of the usual sabot for a brief period! I consider Toby to be a friend to me, although I have not met him yet, I also consider him a friend to smokeless ML hunting. He certainly is not a friend of Savage, and many here. He has his own agenda, not mine, but I respect him edge.
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Post by KerryB on Jul 25, 2009 21:14:45 GMT -5
Few people could argue TB's experience and knowledge when it comes to muzzleloaders. I don't know the guy or even understand him..........of course i don't know or understand Stephen Hawking either...........but i do respect them both!
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 25, 2009 21:46:13 GMT -5
Geeeesh......... is this really about respecting or disrespecting someone?? Either the Savage breech plug has a weakness that encourages and promotes a dangerous situation or it doesn't. Savage won't comment. Toby isn't giving factual explaination for his theory but he sure is using strong language in his attack on Savage Arms. Would be nice if he would present his evidence of the hazardous gas-cutting and detonation chamber with real facts that could be substantuated and tested.
Toby could be right about the hazardous breech plug situation but he chooses slander over giving precise information that would help all who shoot a Savage muzzleloader make a reasonable and informed decision to pull the trigger or not. I don't know enough about Toby Bridges or Savage Arms to know whether I should respect them or not. I do know that it seems that neither of them are as concerned with the shooting public as they are their own reputations.
Doug
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Post by artjr338wm on Jul 27, 2009 13:14:16 GMT -5
I'm strictly 100% theorizing here, but I strongly doubt that after Bridges made public his claims of Savage MLs exploding, that Savage itself investigated ASAP, weather or not his claims might even be remotely possible by trying get a 10ML-II to fail as Bridges described.
I'm also willing to say that these tests could have taken place some where else than the Savage factory so as to keep the chances of the testing becoming public knowledge as remote as possible.
The fact that Savage has not issued a recall of 10ML-IIs is proof enough to me that there is no catastrophic failure inducing flaw present in any aspect of the 10ML-II.
I also feel that Savage would do themselves more harm than good taking any legal action against Mr Bridges as Mr. bridges well knows for a man in his position it is far easier and far, far cheaper to accuse something of failing than to actually prove it, or for Savage to disprove his claims.
I think what Mr. Bridges has done to Savage is in extremely poor taste and having offered no real concrete evidence in the form of any type of independent testing to back up his accusations is rather cowardly on his part.
Anyone can post pictures of a ruptured firearm and then state what they feel was the cause of the failure and place blame, but without listing any additional evidence gained from a completely independent testing source, as to the cause that backs up their statements leads me to strongly suspect that persons motives or veracity in the matter.
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Post by Rifleman on Jul 27, 2009 14:57:36 GMT -5
but I strongly doubt that after Bridges made public his claims of Savage MLs exploding, that Savage itself investigated ASAP, weather or not his claims might even be remotely possible by trying get a 10ML-II to fail as Bridges described. Actually they did. I spoke with someone in their organization that told me point blank, what they had done. Their testing was much more complete then anyone can imagine.
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Post by artjr338wm on Jul 27, 2009 20:39:52 GMT -5
Rifleman, I thought I had worded that paragraph incorrectly and after reading your quote of the same I now realize I did indeed word it incorrectly.
What I meant to say and the idea I wished to convey was that instant savage became aware of Mr Bridges mishap that they subjected the 10ML-II to tests that would try to duplicate as closely as is possible the forces that caused Mr Bridges 10ML-IIs to explode, and not being able to get a 10ML-II to fail as Bridges described, took no farther action.
I would also like to add if Mr Bridges had not one but two 10ML-IIs explode on him it would only be logical he could reproduce the same exact conditions to get a third 10ML-II to fail and this time on camera. The fact he did not do this so as to confirm the presence of a catastrophic design flaw in the 10ML-II and still went on to declare the 10ML-II as a unsafe ML design in public on the INTERNET would have to cause any fair and open minded person to have serious doubts concerning Mr Bridges creditability. At the vary least he should have prior to doing anything in the public venue, contacted Savage discretely and discussed with them at length what happened with his 10ML-IIs giving savage a chance to deal with any safety issues if they indeed did exist. If indeed Mr Bridges has said he did inform savage prior to going public with the failings he alleges to have experienced with the 10-ML-II, and Mr Bridges says Savage did nothing or failed to take any action, I again would view this with much disbelief.
Thank you Rifleman for reminding me I always need to not just proof read my posts but to insure they are grammatically correct to insure they accurately convey exactly the thoughts I wish to express.
Kinda like "No body doesn't like Sara Lee" if you know what I mean.
Regards, Arthur.
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Post by Rifleman on Jul 28, 2009 4:09:23 GMT -5
Completely understandable.
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Post by edge on Jul 28, 2009 8:08:50 GMT -5
SNIP I would also like to add if Mr Bridges had not one but two 10ML-IIs explode on him SNIP Is this something new? I have never heard him claim to have had two blow up on him! There have been 3 blow ups that I know about, but only one belonged to TB. edge.
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Post by DHinMN on Jul 28, 2009 10:41:35 GMT -5
Did Savage ever do a recall on the three hole vent liners? When I got my Savage ML II with Accu trigger I got one 3 hole and one 1 hole vent liner. I started by using the three. I thought I should have some vent liners on hand and ordered some and I was sent three hole vent liners. Later, on the forum it was stated that the one hole'rs were better, but I don't recall that anybody talked about them being dangerous because the center might blow out. Did I miss something along the way?? After reading this thread it seems like Savage should have recalled them. No, I'm not using the three hole vent liners and I'm thinking about getting some of the new Lehigh vent liners. DH
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 28, 2009 12:53:18 GMT -5
The three hole vent liners started coming out about the time of TB's incident (March 2004). I think it was a attempt to get better ignition from powders like 4227 and 2015 which it worked for those powders. The problem was when you used it for the other powders like 5744, 4759 and N110 you over ignited and got a above normal pressure spike. Plus the erosion on the three hole vents would turn them into large one or two hole vents very quickly. By the fall of 2004 the three hole vents were gone.
I often wonder if TB was using a three hole vent at the time of his incident. IIRC the question was asked here on this board and he said it was a one hole vent but in his "press release" he stated "was testing the longevity of an internal part of the ignition system".
I somewhat wonder how the testing is done when farmed out to people like TB and RW. Sure you can put up a chrony and record enviormental factors and how accurate the load was. If you ask RW what the chamber pressure was he comes up with a computer program that estimates the chamber pressure. It might be close but there are too many variables like chamber temp and bullet obturation. Then there are components that are released without testing, I seriously doubt if the three hole vents were thourghly tested before Savage started handing them out, the Thor bullets were never pressure tested, the new domed vents could possibly cause a increase in chamber pressure at a critical point in the 10ML. The only pressure testing data I have seen has been from RB and Edge.
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Post by KerryB on Jul 28, 2009 14:23:31 GMT -5
I would be willing to help get the three hole venliners out of circulation and to that end, i will offer to do an even trade to anyone that sends me three hole ventliners with an equivalent number of single hole ventliners. You will receive Holo-Krome .032 single hole ventliners in exchange for your three holers. This offer is only good till i run out of single hole ventliners, so don't wait too long to contact me via PM if you are interested. I can envision folks with the three holers installing them by accident so maybe we can prevent that with this offer. Of course you could always just throw the three holers away too! ;D KerryB
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Post by ralphy on Aug 8, 2009 7:37:25 GMT -5
Hey guys I just heard about this forum through Michigan sportsman,any way I just purchased a stainless serial #m014779 its a 2002 model have not shot it yet. Owners manuel is not with it, does it like to shoot triple 7 or pyrodex. I never heard of anyone having a blow up problem with there gun before, Im not sure what happened to the Toby fellow since I just joined this forum, any way is this a good gun and is it safe to shoot or should I get rid of it. I bought it from my stepmother as my stepdad has passed and wanted it to remember him by as he is the one that taught me to hunt and fish.I have a Knight disc extreme that shoots like a dream so I didnt need a muzzle loader but this gun has sentimental value as well as with the laminated stock and stainless barrel it is also very nice looking. I would not like to get rid of it but if its not safe I'll have to get rid of it. What do you guys think?
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Post by edge on Aug 8, 2009 8:41:34 GMT -5
ralphy welcome to to board IMO, the rifle is safe when the owner works safely and doesn't overload it or use loads that are too high. Use the loads that are suggested in the owners manual or here and don't DOUBLE load it by accident or shoot your ramrod downrange ;D Some folks do shoot BP substitutes and you should ask about those loads on the main Savage board. edge.
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Post by whyohe on Aug 8, 2009 11:18:24 GMT -5
ralphy, the gun you have is probably safe. we dont know what loads have been shot out of the gun or its history. check the gun over. take the breech plug out and look at it and the ventliner, look down the barrel and check it. take a bullet sabot combo and run it down the barrel feeling for loose spots. if every thing look good, shoot it! the gun is a very safe design. if you need book loads look in the tips and hint section and they will be there. also read up on some of the beginner stuff and alot of your questions should be answered. if have any more questions and concerns feel free to ask.
welcome to the board! i have shot T-7 for 4 years before going to smokless and it shot very well, you just have to take some measures so the crud doesnt freeze things up. ifyou want to talk more on subs make a new post on main board or PM me.
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Post by ralphy on Aug 9, 2009 8:07:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply whyohe. I bought the gun because it was my stepdads and he has since passed. I'm just wondering if i'ts worth all the bother to get all the smokless powder and assecories. The other thing is I really doubt it can out shoot my knight disc magnum. I own other Savage rifles so I know they are shooters. I just don't see the need for two muzzleloaders. I bought it because the gun is stainless laminate with a silver weaver scope and is beautiful, but I think I may sell it rather than hassel with all the other stuff or just use the t7. I have a really bad itch to buy a Savage american classic left hand in 308
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Post by mike3132 on Aug 9, 2009 10:27:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply whyohe. I bought the gun because it was my stepdads and he has since passed. I'm just wondering if i'ts worth all the bother to get all the smokless powder and assecories. The other thing is I really doubt it can out shoot my knight disc magnum. I own other Savage rifles so I know they are shooters. I just don't see the need for two muzzleloaders. I bought it because the gun is stainless laminate with a silver weaver scope and is beautiful, but I think I may sell it rather than hassel with all the other stuff or just use the t7. I have a really bad itch to buy a Savage american classic left hand in 308 Once people shoot the 10ML II most dont go back to shooting BP or BP subs like T-7. If you decide to sell the gun they usually go quick on here. Mike
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