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Post by youp50 on Jan 22, 2009 17:08:03 GMT -5
What are your limits? How did you decide them? How do you check for the dreaded 'flinch'? Did you take steps to reduce the recoil sensation?
I am unsure of my limit, I know a 3.5 inch 12 gage is past my tolerance. I have been shooting 250 grainers at 2500 fps and tolerate it well.
I like to have a buddy load for me and hand me the gun. If he leaves it unprimed or empty I can tell pretty quick that I flinched. With my handgun I just leave one or two chambers empty and give the wheel a Russian Roulette spin.
In the warmer seasons I have a recoil pad. In the winter several layers of heavy clothes are adequate. I always use double ear protection at the range. I think muzzle blast can create a flinch fast as the actual recoil.
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Post by Richard on Jan 22, 2009 17:17:45 GMT -5
I have added extra weight to my rifle #1. I have a 1 1/8" Kick-Eze sorbathane recoil pad and use a extra padded (added 1/2" dense foam pad) PAST Magnum shoulder pad. When I leave the range after having fired some 30 to 40 heavy loads and feel no pain and get no black and blue marks, thats my barometer ;D Richard
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Post by Chris Champion on Jan 22, 2009 18:34:12 GMT -5
I've shot 300gr bullets at 2500 fps and that is enough for me. 2400 fps is much more "enjoyable" if you can really use that term. 250gr at 2500-2600 is also OK. I used to shoot Brenneke Gold 3" slugs in my 9 lb Ithaca 12ga Deerslayer II when I first got it. That was not enjoyable. With my Savage the recoil doesn't bother my shoulder so much but what I don't like is how touchy my gun is with the higher recoiling loads. You have to hold it "just right" or it doesn't group very well. If you can hold it just right then it really hammers. I've been shooting some lower recoiling loads of late, (250gr @ 2250-2300 fps), and they don't seem to be as touchy on how you hold it. Nor do 250g bullets in 2500-2600 fps range. In my mind, recoil would be one of the real advantages of getting one of the Pac-Nor 45's because you could shoot 195 or 200gr bullets in the 2600-2700 fps range with pleasant recoil. If you do the calculations a 195gr bullet at 2700 fps has about 2/3 the recoil of my 300g 2400 fps load in my 50. But then again so does a book load of a 250g bullet at 2300 fps.
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Post by craigf on Jan 22, 2009 18:42:12 GMT -5
I good friend of mine has a single shot turkey gun the shoots 3 1/2 shells, oh and its 3.5 pounds. Everyone who has shot it says you can feel your fillings in your teeth rattle.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 22, 2009 20:21:17 GMT -5
My limits....hmmmmm. I am not a tough guy at all. Yet some think I am impervious to recoil. Quite the contrary. My Savage beat me silly before I added the recoil pads. To the point of serious bruising.
ANYTHING I've shot in my Savage has not come close to heavy turkey load or goose loads fired from the bench for patterning.
This includes 370 LBT's at 2400 fps. Now...my gun has 2 recoil pads. Does this matter? To me it does. The gun comes back and decelerates more gradually. It is not gentle but it is not abusive. I can not describe it any better then that.
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Post by northny on Jan 22, 2009 21:08:41 GMT -5
A lot of variables on me for felt recoil. One is just body size and shape. The same rifle that beat me up bad as a skinny teen age distance runner were a lot more comfortable in my mid twenties when I packed some meat on the bones. A load that is mild in my mod 70 featherweight with recoil pad seem stronger in my mod 70 xtr and are almost painfull in my pre war 70 with a metal butt plate. 12 gauge slug loads that wallop me in a deerslayer with plastic butt pad are much tamer in semi auto remington with recoil pad.
So for me, "too much recoil" is one of two things independant of the firearm or the load. First, if I cannot shoot 15 or twenty shots and still have it be fun, then it is too much. Second, if I can not call my shots (excluding equipment failure) and the group is opening up, I am showing early signs of reacting to the recoil. It may be too much recoil from one rifle, but sometimes it is just a sign that I have done enough shooting for that day. Since I usually take a few high power rifles in addition to the MLII, I do seem to suffer from a "cumulative" effect. Each gun alone is fine, but after a couple hours, my accuracy deteriorates.
I have gotten in the habit of shooting my rifles wearing my trap vest. It is handy for the convenience of plenty of pockets and keeping my range membership badge displayed, but it is also for the 1/4 inch closed cell foam recoil pad in the shoulder pocket.
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Post by sw on Jan 22, 2009 21:20:30 GMT -5
I good friend of mine has a single shot turkey gun the shoots 3 1/2 shells, oh and its 3.5 pounds. Everyone who has shot it says you can feel your fillings in your teeth rattle. I have a very light camo NEF 12 turkey gun. I've shot 3 1/2" shells in it and actually dislocated my shoulder once. I'm slow to learn. The only gun that I've shot with more recoil is the SMI 50 cal on the same frame just mentioned with 2 total loads of 300SST/72gs 2015 on top of each other. Some of you saw the picture of me after that. High recoil is tough on scopes, most people's ability to shoot accurately, and the shooter's body.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 22, 2009 21:35:18 GMT -5
I read an article by a doctor, who studied recoil effect on body types, according to him, long slender bodies handle recoil the best. Thick muscle mass types absorves the recoil, while long thin types move with it. Sounds goofy to me, but a case in point, Is Cindy Garrison, she shoot a 577, with good skill. I'll pass on that.
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Post by ozark on Jan 22, 2009 21:53:16 GMT -5
I dislike recoil and I am aware that I am not flinch proof. Because I know that I could flinch and destroy my accuracy, I make a personal commitment to myself to concentrate of trigger action and to simply take the punishment. I see flinching as terrible and something that I would feel really bad to do because of my years of training. So before a shot I say: "Sergeant Boyd" (I am serious when I refer to my military grade) concentrate on doing it right and don't make a fool of yourself." Yes, I will use a glove, recoil pads, the sling or whatever to decrease the amount of punishment I have to take. Anyone can flinch but you don't have to do it. I have a question to consider: Does it hurt any less when you flinch? Ozark
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Post by jims on Jan 22, 2009 22:14:51 GMT -5
Do you think the flinch is the anticipation? When I was in basic training the drill instructor always said, "Do not anticipate the call". A different issue but in someways perhaps the same.
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 22, 2009 22:20:48 GMT -5
I target shoot for the pure fun of it. I love to shoot my heavy Rem700 VSL in 243 Winchester. A little thump and the scope is aligned again so I can focus on the target. What a pleasure! However shooting 300 grainers with 75 gr of 10X from my Savage 10ML is absolutely no pleasure. A radical explosion happens right in front of my nose. So many times my first shots are my most accurate.
The amount of drop at any defined distance can be calculated and anticipated. Windage on the other hand is much more involved because of varying conditions and is made simpler by shooting faster. But unless I had some money burning a hole in my pocket would I ever consider changing calibers just so I could deal with the wind to a lesser degree.
BUT RECOIL......now that is a different and more impacting issue. Recoil prevents me from enjoying what I love doing. Sure it is always great to shoot tight groups but I would also like to enjoy the entire process. Not only the results. I want to shoot fast with low recoil. I know that you can't have everything but if I can figure a way to enhance my pleasure while feeding my addiction to accuracy I will usually find a way to afford it. If you don't believe me just ask my wife.
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Post by ozark on Jan 22, 2009 22:32:00 GMT -5
Anticipating recoil is another term for flinching. It is something like the boxer who finished a round and his corner told him he was winning hands down. He responded: "Then keep your eyes of the referee because someone in there is beating the devil out of me."
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Post by rbinar on Jan 22, 2009 22:51:09 GMT -5
8-)You mention the question of how we learned our own recoil limit and I'd have to mention it was the hard way.
When I was taking pressure measurements I wanted to test a few loads that were near the sabot breaking limit for a single powder. I was also interested in finding some really BIG game loads for some friends who thought they would take their 10MLs to Africa.
The first attempt was with the 350 grain Speer semi-spritzer in .458 caliber. The powder I used was H322. I got to over 80 grains and the sabots were still in tact. When I reached a bullet speed of 2550fps I realized my shoulder was going to break before the sabot would.
When working with 400 and 500 grain bullets the same thing would happen shooting 3031 but by then I had adopted the practice of putting a 25lb. bag of #7 shot between my shoulder and the rifle butt. I finished the loads and quit shooting very heavy bullets.
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Post by ET on Jan 22, 2009 23:00:12 GMT -5
Recoil for me is not so much about handling the returning force but more for controlling or duplicating the path rewards for accurate results. I use the free recoil holding method because I can much easier duplicate this in the field.
I also agree with the many here heavy recoil is not wanted by me either. Reduce recoil and my groups always improve. This is one of the reasons I have not gone with the higher velocity levels in my 10ML-II that many try because my current book load provides sufficient trajectory and killing power out to 200yds for deer. Also the accuracy is surprisingly good.
Many good points have been made about the capability of the 45 and reduced recoil with lighter bullets and higher velocity. If that is your desire or goal heck I will even recommend that. For me the 50 playground hasn’t been fully explored yet. Guess I am still having too much fun in this area.
Ed
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 23, 2009 7:23:46 GMT -5
ET,
You nail it...............have FUN
Don't get beat up, thats not fun.
Its like taking a boy fishing, don't try bonefishing first, take him bluegill fishing so he can see its fun.
When I was 11, my Dad a great sportsman, got me a 22, after I became a fair shot, a 30/30, It was fun, and its lasted a long time, tomorrow I'll be 75, and the bug is as stong as when I was 11.
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Post by joe21a on Jan 23, 2009 9:00:09 GMT -5
Just added a Sim,s recoil pad and shoot 200gr bullets at 2600 fps. Nice recoil and does all I need for hunting.
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Post by fowlplay on Jan 23, 2009 9:27:42 GMT -5
Bigmoose, Happy Birthday. I hope I will be blessed with the health and desire to hunt at 75 years young. Being a slug gun hunter and a avid waterfowler that loves 3.5'' candle sticks, I just have one thing to say about recoil in the Savage. What recoil? Steve
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 23, 2009 9:34:21 GMT -5
Happy birthday Bigmoose!!!
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 23, 2009 9:39:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind wishes, I hope the hunt burns brightly for you, and you take to the feild forever, in your mind and heart, what a wonderful blessing going into the field is.
Its God in all his glory
Good Luck to all
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Post by raf on Jan 23, 2009 10:29:34 GMT -5
IMO flinching is anticipating the recoil. You know it's coming when you know you're going to put the trigger. When I'm shooting I concentrate on the target and squeeze the trigger increasing the pressure slightly until the rifle fires. I don't know when it will fire until it does. The only time that doesn't work is when you're hunting and shooting at game and in that situation I'm not even thinking of recoil
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 23, 2009 10:36:25 GMT -5
I flinch like a Congressman in a public bathroom. I don't know why. I spent my younger years shooting individual wings off of gnats at 5,000 yards. Well, ok, maybe 2,000 yards. My memory has grown bad some. Seriously, I got a 7MM WSM a few years ago thinking I'd shoot FLAT as far as I could see. That didn't work because it blew my shoulder into burger meat and I KNEW it and subconsciously I couldn't shoot it. Oddly, I could punch paper with it very well. But in the field I always pushed my shoulder into that rifle and shot under the deer. I did shoot a running antelope with it at a bazillion yards but it took 4 shots and I had a guy yelling in my ear and adrenaline was high. But from a normal resting deer-type shot I couldn't shoot it. I gave it to my son. He's a big ole boy. He couldn't shoot it either. It now sits in my closet, scope stolen for another gun, and I doubt I ever shoot it again. Yet I shot 60g of N120 and 300g BO last summer 28 times (out of stupidity, ok, but I did shoot that often), using a barrel cooler and shooting as fast as I could, in a T-shirt, and never had a bruise, never noticed or felt any recoil to speak of. Yet I betcha that 'felt recoil' is similar with the two guns. So, I concur with me it's mental. I have no compunction shooting Betsy (the ML) and never flinch, and thus I've hit everything I've aimed at. But clearly, there are guns that cause me to flinch like a mad snake. I have learned to never, ever, ever, ever, buy anything that says "Magnum" on it for any reason, because it's not needed, and it usually hurts. And happy birthday old man! You're my hero! I want to hunt when I'm 90........
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Post by youp50 on Jan 23, 2009 11:16:14 GMT -5
There is a fellow at my club that set a30-06 up for his wife. She had neck surgery and he wanted something with little 'kick'. I agree he probably should have started with something a tad smaller. He has a BAR with barrel ported, a couple of mercury recoil reducers in the stock, and a thick pad installed. He was bragging up how it didn't kick at all. As I watched him shoot it was obvious to me his shoulder was coming back as far as the fellows near him. He then offered me three rounds, I ripped them down range as fast as I could. All three were inside 3 inches. From his results it appeared that was the best capable with that load. It really did have a low sensation of recoil. I had never been that fast with follow up shots in my life.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 23, 2009 11:33:13 GMT -5
90 sounds due doable if you work at it. I will work extra hard tomorrow, so I can feed my face at the birthday dinner with my family. If I was a Deer hunter, I would use a 250gr. Hornady XTP [super accurate] with book loads, and concentrate on putting the bullet in the boiler room. The only reason I'm playing with 350gr bullets and full loads, I want to take a Brown Bear without the guide using a follow up shot, that is our agreement, if the animal doesn't go down he will fire, Which is the proper way. I have watched Griz run, and by the time I could reload [something I practice] a Griz would be up of range of any rifle.
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Post by ozark on Jan 23, 2009 11:58:57 GMT -5
That depends on which way it decided to run bigmoose. It could recoil as in backatchu. ozark
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Post by Harley on Jan 23, 2009 12:08:53 GMT -5
Happy birthday, Bigmoose.
I use a Lead Sled with 25# of shot for bench work and never feel any recoil. In a hunting situation the adrenalin rush counters any felt recoil.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 23, 2009 13:02:09 GMT -5
Ozark, I watch very big mostly white Griz run, the bush pliot, dropped down to take a picture. It eat up the ground like a greyhound, If you had a muzzleloader, and he was coming for you, pray would be order, because, you wont get a second shot. I read that they can out run a house for a short distance......I believe it. and they have bigger teeth and claws
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 23, 2009 13:03:20 GMT -5
Horse not house, I know I should paid more attention in school
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Post by youp50 on Jan 23, 2009 15:00:09 GMT -5
I have never faced a charging grizz. Heard tell best thing to do is get on a knee and shoot. The logic being to avoid shooting behind it as you failed to lead it correctly. Did have a pair of black bears try for me, not at the same time. I sorta forgot to drop to a knee and shoot. I have seen a couple of grizzlies run and some film of them too. IMO the blackie is much slower.
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Post by raf on Jan 23, 2009 15:25:22 GMT -5
Horse not house, I know I should paid more attention in school I saw that and thought even I can out run a house
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Post by dpoor65 on Jan 24, 2009 15:11:40 GMT -5
well my limit was reached after about shot 15 and It down right hurt to shoot the gun....so I went to a local sporting goods and bought a Limb Saver slip on recoil pad man what a differance advertised to reduce 70% and to be honest I believe it.....
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