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Post by mountainam on Jul 11, 2009 6:39:47 GMT -5
I'm new to this great board and am contemplating having a new breech plug made to facilitate the use of a shortened .223 case to hold the primers. I own four 700ML's and they all shoot great. I'm still using a #11 cap for ignition. I would like the bolt end modified to hold the .223 case and return to a firing pin to cut down on the blow back of the slam-fire design. I saw some similar designs on this site a while ago,but I can't find them again. I thought I would ask the experts for their input so I'm not reinventing the wheel so to speak. I'm from the school of thought that believes that the 209 is more powerful than necessary.
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Post by dave d. on Jul 11, 2009 9:07:06 GMT -5
:)there is no easy way imo.i made a bolt cap for my bolt and modified the plug to have a closed primer pocket for 209's and headspaced it for a crush fit and had zero blowback.blackhawk took a centerfire bolt and cut the lugs off and milled a slot in it for the bolt retaining screw which would be perfect for you for holding a case.if i was you i would go with a large rifle primer case because of better ignition.you can use standard lrs for your subs and if one day down the road you wanted to rebarrel it for smokless you would just need to switch to a lrm.goodluck
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Post by mountainam on Jul 11, 2009 14:17:38 GMT -5
I was contemplating the bolt cap route as you. I could have a cutter made to match the brass case.The plunger is solid and could be shortened and drilled for a Hornady large primer decapping pin. I looked at an RCBS but all the new ones that they sell are sheared flat and no longer have the rounded end. Maybe it was one of your Remington breech plugs that I saw a while ago.I believe the narrative said that it was two piece. Did that mean that it had a vent liner also? That one looked as though the brass case fit over a nipple so to speak. Would a modified breech plug not stand up to smokeless powder? I'm not seeing any weaker lockup on the bolt than the Savage has. I appreciate any insight.thanks
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Post by Al on Jul 12, 2009 4:47:20 GMT -5
Dave, do you know what a CF Savage bolt head looks like? I think they are interchangeable for different rim diameters, ie: 223, 243, and the mags., maybe they could be easilyreworked for the 700 ML's. This a crudly done Savage ML primer holder fitted into a 700ML bolt, the slam rod ground for a firing pin. I've prettyied it up some since, and works like a charm in my 54cal. and I've also went the long route this way, looks are cleaner, but time consuming.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 12, 2009 6:10:18 GMT -5
AL,Thanks for sharing the photos! Does your rifle retain the original barrel? What type of breech plug did you design for it.Would you know what the Remington thread is on their breech plug? I've been looking for two for my thread gauges and can't find them. I think it's 11/16 but I am not positive on the pitch. Also, are you using smokeless powder in your rifle? By the way, your bolt conversion is not at all crude.
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Post by Al on Jul 12, 2009 6:43:21 GMT -5
AL,Thanks for sharing the photos! Does your rifle retain the original barrel? What type of breech plug did you design for it.Would you know what the Remington thread is on their breech plug? I've been looking for two for my thread gauges and can't find them. I think it's 11/16 but I am not positive on the pitch. Also, are you using smokeless powder in your rifle? By the way, your bolt conversion is not at all crude. The 54cal is stainless and is all factory(well, I restocked it), but I had to make a new BP to mate up with the 209 primer, factory thread is 11/16 x 20. Right now I'm playing with BH209 in it, imho, the plug needs to be longer for smokless. The other bolt is for my 45cal and was set up for sabotless, it wears a Shilen barrel and has a longer plug. The guys who designed the 700ML ignition system must have forgot what they had for breakfast that day, mine sure were sooty blowback mess when shooting Pyro or BP.
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Post by dave d. on Jul 12, 2009 8:35:12 GMT -5
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Post by mountainam on Jul 12, 2009 11:02:05 GMT -5
Dave, What makes it two piece? Does the "nipple" that the CF case fits over screw in from the other end? How tight does the case fit over the nipple? Does it also use a Savage style vent liner or is that inner piece a combo nipple/vent liner? Will this design eliminate more of the blow back or less than a type that a case would chamber into as does the Savage?
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Post by mountainam on Jul 12, 2009 11:54:15 GMT -5
AL, I just removed my breech plug from my .54 Remington and placed it next to my .50 Savage's and the Savage has no more threads on it that the Remmy. Also the diameter of the Savage appears to be smaller. Or do you mean by longer the Remington Breech plug needs to protrude into the bore by some 3/8 inches or so like the Savage does?
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Post by Al on Jul 12, 2009 14:16:34 GMT -5
yep, longer in threads is what I'd prefer for smokeless, I'd go at least 1" of threads or do like the savage.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 12, 2009 15:26:08 GMT -5
Al, What attachment method did you use on your fabricated bolt cap in the photos for your .45? Was it a interference press fit,silver solder, heli-arc?
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Post by dave d. on Jul 12, 2009 18:12:01 GMT -5
Dave, What makes it two piece? Does the "nipple" that the CF case fits over screw in from the other end? How tight does the case fit over the nipple? Does it also use a Savage style vent liner or is that inner piece a combo nipple/vent liner? Will this design eliminate more of the blow back or less than a type that a case would chamber into as does the Savage? :)m the center section is .375 and is press fit into the bottom of the plug and the ventliner screws into it from the other side and sandwichs it inbetween the 2 pieces.
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Post by Al on Jul 13, 2009 2:57:21 GMT -5
Al, What attachment method did you use on your fabricated bolt cap in the photos for your .45? Was it a interference press fit,silver solder, heli-arc? That one I tapped the bolt and threaded in the nose.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 13, 2009 6:12:27 GMT -5
Al, That's a great idea. How is your breech plug fabricated for your .54? Does it use a vent liner? Does the breech plug protrude into the bore like the Savage design? Can you use a socket wrench or did you have to fabricate a tool?
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Post by Al on Jul 13, 2009 10:28:52 GMT -5
looks like this, nothing special. The insert is to set headspace, and I use a carbide bushing for a ventliner.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 13, 2009 11:17:13 GMT -5
Al, In the upper photo looking into the breech plug,is that the carbide liner that we see at the far end? The hole looks quite large, or is that where the vent liner screws into? Your camera is awesome. Every time I try this my pictures come out like the ones of the Lock Nes monster.
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Post by Al on Jul 13, 2009 16:08:51 GMT -5
Al, In the upper photo looking into the breech plug,is that the carbide liner that we see at the far end? The hole looks quite large, or is that where the vent liner screws into? Your camera is awesome. Every time I try this my pictures come out like the ones of the Lock Nes monster. no vent in that one at the time, it's just a 1/4 x 3/8 long piece of carbide, Loctited and staked in. Sony T100, still trying to get it figure out.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 14, 2009 11:07:06 GMT -5
Al,So how did you end up fastening the vent liner to your carbide bushing?
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Post by Al on Jul 15, 2009 2:41:25 GMT -5
Al,So how did you end up fastening the vent liner to your carbide bushing? the carbide bushing is the vent liner, just EDM'd a .030 hole thru it.
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Post by mountainam on Jul 15, 2009 6:51:00 GMT -5
Al, That seems like a very durable material. Would it ever need changed? If so, I'll bet it would outlast the Savage design by far. That is another reason that I want to work out the one bug I feel is in my Remingtons. Until owning a Savage, I never experienced a breech plug clogging so badly. I recall in the owners manual Savage noting a replacement schedule for the vent liner.I own a Knight,CVA's and T/C, but do not recall them suggesting to change the non-ventliner breech plugs.Of course these are BP guns, but Savage recommends that if using BP to change the vent liner more frequently. From what I'm seeing, the glass-like coating in the breech plug is from the excessive mixture of the 209's. I appreciate all the ingenuity that you fellows are willing to share with the rest of us. It's just a small peek of the knowledge and ingenuity that is possessed nowhere else but here in the great ol' USA.Thankyou!
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