Can they do it themselves?

[mshm99]

First let me say I in no way care to denigrate or cast negative on our brave and patriotic troops fighting the good fight on too many fronts, God bless you and keep you.

That said, does any one believe, that when we leave, these heathens will not revert back to the same backward ways?

The Afghans kicked Russia's ass ,the same way we kicked England's ass in the revolutionary war.

Who knows what will happen in Iraq.

We should only help if we have won the hearts and minds of locals. Other wise surround them and let them fight it out. These hopelessly inbred , brain damaged, wackos only know how to fight and reproduce.

The picture of the Saigon bug out is still burned in my mind. I think history is about to repeat itself, again.

American lives are precious. Lets hope we are serving some greater good.

mshm

[ozark]

I think we are viewing things partly wrong. We have a tendency to build a dislike or hate for the people of countries when our attention should be focused on the government or leaders of those countries. Is not Americans the same under Obama as we were under Bush, Carter or Nixon? Hitler was certainly a bad egg but the German people are good people generally and many of our ancestors came here from Germany. We go to war and fight the people when it is their dictators or leaders that are calling the shots. I think this is one reason that Americans are hated around the world. Often when a war ends we become allies with the people of that country under a different government.
The people of North Korea are probably no different from those of South Korea. The system of government is different. Iranians are probably mostly good people just as any other country. I think your comment that these people are inbred, brain damaged, wackos should be directed to those who rule them. Sometimes with an iron hand. With our high tech weapons I think we are capable of going for the governments that we must fight and stop being led to hate the people. Any thoughts about this? Just my views. Ozark

[mshm99]

You are probubly right Ozark. Iguess maybe their vision of what the country will be is different than what we would expect.

mshm

[edge]

IMO, you need to look at things like a peasant in SE Asia ( Vietnam)

You have the communists VC, Chinese, Khmer Rouge, etc. on one side and US on the other with the free South sort of helping.

If you are living in a village under the thumb of the VC you would ( as a US person ) want to be free....and so would they!

You could speak up and probably be tortured ( not water boarded, but really tortured ). Your wife and daughters raped and then killed, and your sons tortured and killed...what the heck your parents if still alive your mother raped and killed and your father tortured and killed. This may extend to your distant relatives too.

OR

You could go about your daily chores.

Now you say that the US and allies were there to fight for you....yes, but you fight and move on and then the VC come back and we go to the previous paragraph

Even in the US, in inner cities were there are gangs and organized crime most law abiding people don't cooperate!!
And you want the peasant to do it in a war zone?

edge.

[ozark]

You are correct IMO edge. The people are victums and helpless. I usnderstand why they would not join us by revolting against their government. But I see little gain by fighting these victums when it isn't their choice. I think we should go after the root causes and eliminate those who are the decision makers. We didn't need to destroy half of Iraq in order to eliminate Sadam. Most little people are brain washed whether it be in Viet Nam or America. If they initate a draft we will see most of those called serve because it is the law and failure to obey brings problems. Pinpoint the problem causers and eliminate them. I understand we have weapons so accurate we can drop explosives down smokestacks. So why put people on the ground before we destroy the dictators and leaders who keeps our deaths as a first priority?

[chuck41]

Jun 19, 2009 20:32:36 GMT -5 ozark said:

You are correct IMO edge. The people are victums and helpless. I usnderstand why they would not join us by revolting against their government. But I see little gain by fighting these victums when it isn't their choice. I think we should go after the root causes and eliminate those who are the decision makers. We didn't need to destroy half of Iraq in order to eliminate Sadam. Most little people are brain washed whether it be in Viet Nam or America. If they initate a draft we will see most of those called serve because it is the law and failure to obey brings problems. Pinpoint the problem causers and eliminate them. I understand we have weapons so accurate we can drop explosives down smokestacks. So why put people on the ground before we destroy the dictators and leaders who keeps our deaths as a first priority?

The trick is to know which smokestack to drop the bomb down, and when. Leaders, like Sadam, have legs and tend to not be in the same place all the time.

Hitting the decision makers takes a lot of intelligence on the ground. We don't often have a lot of that with the kind of accuracy to determine which smokestack. We also have planes that have to be launched, fly a number of hours to get to their target and are then able to stay on target for only a short time. That is why things like the Predator drones are fabulous vehicles. They can be in the air near the target area for long times waiting for the intelligence to break.

Its really hard to hit only the one or two "decision makers" you want. Tain't always near as easy as you make it sound.

[ozark]

I agree it would probably take time to determine where the culprits are located.
That is no reason to start bloowing up bridges, Bombing cities and putting tens of thousand of soldiers on the ground doing 18th century hide and seek type warfare. If a man does you wrong why shoot his dogs? Bide your time until you can take out the man.

[mshm99]

Fellow members, your points are well taken. However, the initial question is : When we pull out ,will those governing be able to maintain the progress that our forces bought for them ,with their blood, or will it slip back to the way it was before?"

Your thoughts please.

mshm

[ozark]

My thoughts: 1. The ruthless becomes dominate and in time it reverts back to their control. Motivation is wealth and power.
2. Pulling out isn't the problem. Pushing in has been our porblems.
3. Instinctively leadership provides power and power is mankinds greatest thrill.
4. Germany and Japan learned what power leaders can lead to and have avoided becoming ruled by power hungry leaders since WWII.
5. Half won wars have never worked. Unconditional surrender and defeat only.
6. With the blood of the poor man, ruthless leaders gains power and riches.
7. We are in a pattern that is likely to remain for another fifty years.
8. If the future could be known like history we would probably hope to die young.
9. It is funny how the opressed and weak from other countries have come to america and done exceptionally well.
10. It is all about religion and politics. Both subject best avoided.

[mshm99]

Very profound,Ozark. Much to absorb and consider. The half won war point brings the thought that the 200 years of Crusades against Islam only pruned the tree.

mshm

[Buckrub]

Can't argue with Ozark's wise comments.

But to the original question, I've always sort of laughed (so it's not something to laugh at, so shoot me) at Democrats saying they would pull out of Iraq.

We've never pulled out of anywhere we've been. We're STILL in Okinawa, Germany, Europe, S. Korea, you name it. We'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever, leave those places.

So why do we think we will leave Iraq?

If we actually do, it won't be a month before we are back there. Does anyone actually think that we'll shed 3,000 (?) lives there and then leave and let them screw it up totally again? NO way. If they function alone, great. Fine. Wonderful. But if not, we'll be back. There is no other option.