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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 19:48:15 GMT -5
This is a velocity comparison of my Savage TA .451 (209) to Hankins Rem 700 .458 (LRM) Sorry guys no 43 minute videos... All of my groups are 3 shot groups because I only had 11 275 BEs left today. I will post 5 shot accuracy groups when the wind dies down below 50 mph...yes gusts of 50 mph today. I have another box of 275 BEs coming from Luke. Savage TA .451 29" in front of lug, 3/4" longer than Jeff's barrel. Avg velocity is 20-30fps per inch of barrel. So we'll subtract 30 fps off of every calculation for my 3/4" longer barrel Sightron 8-32x SIII scope 275 BEs Stock Savage plug .040" bushing All bullets were 1-2 hands of loading pressure I had shot a 3 shot group on 3-21-2015 with: 70 grains of h4198 and a 275 BE 3101 3094 3089 Avg 3095 -30 for barrel Avg 3065....LRM Avg 3020 209 primer is 45 fps faster ES 12 Can't find target yet for H4198 IMR3031 90 grains 275 BE 3033 3052 3016 Very loose loading pressure Avg 3033 -30 for barrel length Avg 3003....LRM Avg 2951.......209 primer is 52 fps faster ES 36 H4350 115 Grains 275 BE 3120 3118 3124 Avg 3121 -30 for barrel length Avg 3091......LRM Avg 2905..........209 primer is 186 fps faster ES 6 Retumbo 135 grains 275 BE 2568 2572 --- 2505 Avg 2548 -30 for barrel length Avg 2518.......LRM Avg 2239..........209 is 279 fps faster ES 67 3rd shot with Retumbo that didn't register Target: with 35-50 mph winds on at least half of the range I'm surprised they were this tight. My new toy...first time I shot with it was today and I love it!!! 41 lbs Felt recoil is laughable..no seriously there's very little recoil. Target Shooting Model 1000 LP with recoil reducer. This rest is solid as a rock. It's way more sturdy than my Lead Sled, and I thought that thing was the greatest! I can't wait to start shooting at 500 with this rest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 19:49:12 GMT -5
Boom...
Very nice to see the ES tighten up as well. Long range precision will definitely benefit there. Looks like Badbull wasn't all wet when they chose h4350, both of the test rifles turned out small spreads with that powder.
Care to let us in on the secret for that 7530fps load? Haha
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:14:37 GMT -5
Boom... Very nice to see the ES tighten up as well. Long range precision will definitely benefit there. Looks like Badbull wasn't all wet when they chose h4350, both of the test rifles turned out small spreads with that powder. Care to let us in on the secret for that 7530fps load? Haha 7530 fps...uhh..I'm trying to drag race a tachyon with a 310 APB...and I'm not winning. No seriously though, that false 7530 fps shows up periodically with the Magnetospeed, as does the Invalid speed prompt. Trust me I was hoping the third Retumbo shot was going to be closer to the others for a tight ES...the fourth shot let me down.
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Post by dave d. on Apr 2, 2015 20:34:16 GMT -5
No surprise the 209 did better then lrm. Very nice report Earnhart. What were the temps when shooting? This is another factor which looks like the lrm was shot in pretty warm weather which would give it some help.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:45:45 GMT -5
Interesting test, thanks for sharing and that is one sweet gun!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:51:06 GMT -5
No surprise the 209 did better then lrm. Very nice report Earnhart. What were the temps when shooting? This is another factor which looks like the lrm was shot in pretty warm weather which would give it some help. 40*F
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Post by gar on Apr 2, 2015 20:51:32 GMT -5
Are your BE's full formed or smooth? I would think with a smooth bullet the rise to pressure would be a bit milder compared to a full form and with the bit smaller volume in the .451 barrel would enhance the pressure rise. I may be thinking about this all wrong but I don't think the total difference is only due to the primer. I wonder too if different chrony's read exactly the same. I do think the 209's in your setup are working phenomenally well and I think you even did a test by interchanging primers in your setup but I don't remember precisely.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 21:14:00 GMT -5
Nice report Earnhardt, but I have to question true apple to apple comparisons when the barrels are .007" different in bore diameter which might not seem much, but when you figure tube volume in a 29 inch barrel and how powders react "hotter" when you reduce bore size..And as Richard mentioned temperature differences......Just an observation and I'm probably overthinking it,lol.....
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Post by Dave W on Apr 2, 2015 21:29:52 GMT -5
The lrps struggle with efficiency as the powders progress to a slower burn rate.
How close are you to QL estimates with those loads? With the .375, we have been within 3-4% of QL velocity estimates with nearly every load we have tried.
FWIW Guy and I get the same velocity with a 70gr duplex in his .458 and my .451. The Ruger .458 was faster than my .451 with every load I shot in it.
Good test and shooting!
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Post by Richard on Apr 2, 2015 21:32:20 GMT -5
Good test Josh! I believe that at 100 yards, even with a good wind, these heavy bullets shot at the speeds your getting are not overly effected. The rest?.................who makes it? It is evident the quality is good as I assume the price would reflect! The sled can be made to be quite sturdy but it take a bit of time and the right tools to modify it. Had you considered a "track" set up to keep it on target without having to adjust it each shot? Richard
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Post by lwh723 on Apr 2, 2015 22:15:55 GMT -5
Yeah, that rest looks awesome. I want one.
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Post by markb317 on Apr 2, 2015 22:28:57 GMT -5
I think that the only way to get a true comparison between the 209 and LRMP is to shot them over the same chrono on the same day. I have seen alot of difference in reading between different chrono's.
I'll be at the Kentucky Challenge with my Brux barreled 45 that uses 209's that is around 27" in front of the action that we could compare volocity against the LMRP if someone has a chrono there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 22:40:42 GMT -5
sml, there might be a difference at .007", but if it's there, I haven't seen anything noticeable.
gar, as for smooth bore vs full form...the faster the powder the less difference there is in velocity spreads or ES.
ie. with my B-17 .458 I used the same IMR4831 powder load as I did with this .451, and I was using a .451 327 MH The velocities were actually higher with the .458 than in my .451, while using the .451 bullets, as they should be due to the barrel being longer and the Arrowhead plug sealing better than the stock Savage plug. But the ES was nearing 30 fps, with some groups. For a millisecond there is a small amount of gas getting by around the bullet. MAYBE with a slower powder that slight pressure drop causes fluctuations in fps?....I don't know. When the LRM guys are using the 275 BEs with very fast powders like the 4198s, you don't seems to see the effects of it, because the accuracy is outstanding.
With Keith's and Luke new, heavier .458 bullets coming out, this will be a big test for some of our guns.
If there is a difference in between a .451 and .458 bullet with slower powders?... we'll be able to really prove that with these heavier jacketed bullets.
Comparing the .451 325 MHs to 335 APBs and Keith's bullets (what's the name of them Keith?)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 22:41:57 GMT -5
I think that the only way to get a true comparison between the 209 and LRMP is to shot them over the same chrono on the same day. I have seen alot of difference in reading between different chrono's. I'll be at the Kentucky Challenge with my Brux barreled 45 that uses 209's that is around 27" in front of the action that we could compare volocity against the LMRP if someone has a chrono there. Great idea! Try it with a 275 BE and 115 grains of H4350.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 22:49:00 GMT -5
Are your BE's full formed or smooth? I would think with a smooth bullet the rise to pressure would be a bit milder compared to a full form and with the bit smaller volume in the .451 barrel would enhance the pressure rise. I may be thinking about this all wrong but I don't think the total difference is only due to the primer. I wonder too if different chrony's read exactly the same. I do think the 209's in your setup are working phenomenally well and I think you even did a test by interchanging primers in your setup but I don't remember precisely. Yes, I have LRM systems for my Savages. That's when I realized the differences between the two. The faster the powder , the less difference you see. The slower the powder, the more the velocity swings like a gyro losing its balance. With any load you can tell when it's starting to get pressure starved. Big velocity drops, and big velocity swings. With a centerfire rifle, I don't think you can use as slow of powders that we do in our SMLs. On one end of the spectrum we can play with boosters, or use super fast powders and get away with it. And the pressures don't go through the roof. And on the other end of the spectrum we can use crazy slow powders.
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Post by Jon on Apr 2, 2015 23:47:08 GMT -5
Great report. Are you shooting for groups with the Mgnetospeed on the barrel? I thought there was a difference in point of impact?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 7:08:35 GMT -5
Great report. Are you shooting for groups with the Mgnetospeed on the barrel? I thought there was a difference in point of impact? Yesterday I was shooting those groups over the Magnetospeed. And yes it does effect the groupings. When the new box of 275 BEs comes, I'll shoot the next groups without the magnetospeed, and without the wind.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 7:11:20 GMT -5
Good test Josh! I believe that at 100 yards, even with a good wind, these heavy bullets shot at the speeds your getting are not overly effected. The rest?.................who makes it? It is evident the quality is good as I assume the price would reflect! The sled can be made to be quite sturdy but it take a bit of time and the right tools to modify it. Had you considered a "track" set up to keep it on target without having to adjust it each shot? Richard It's a Target Shooting Model 1000LP I built a track for the Lead Sled, but I wasn't getting the results that I thought should be getting. Seemed like more vertical dispersion for me.
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Post by rambler on Apr 3, 2015 7:54:36 GMT -5
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Apr 3, 2015 11:58:38 GMT -5
Holy $$snikey$$ Bruce Wayne! I'm gonna have to start working 2 jobs.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 3, 2015 13:12:00 GMT -5
Comparing the .451 325 MHs to 335 APBs and Keith's bullets (what's the name of them Keith?) the company license is filed as Kinetic Performance, LLC and since this board seems to like acronyms (BE,MH,EMAX,HIS, etc.) I've considered BOMB (Ballistic ally Optimized Muzzleloader Bullet) or STOMP (Sabotless Technology Optimized Muzzleloader Projectile). I made 7 different weight bullets last night and will shoot them Monday.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5
Comparing the .451 325 MHs to 335 APBs and Keith's bullets (what's the name of them Keith?) the company license is filed as Kinetic Performance, LLC and since this board seems to like acronyms (BE,MH,EMAX,HIS, etc.) I've considered BOMB (Ballistic ally Optimized Muzzleloader Bullet) or STOMP (Sabotless Technology Optimized Muzzleloader Projectile). I made 7 different weight bullets last night and will shoot them Monday. Man...I like the "B.O.M.B." bullet name!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 7:15:29 GMT -5
For those wondering about comparing 209M primers to LRM primers in ignition tests.
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Post by longrange on Jul 23, 2015 8:18:39 GMT -5
Which 209 primers were you using and which lrp were you using? Were any of the primers magnum primers?
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Post by bcarmon on Jul 23, 2015 8:28:33 GMT -5
Has anyone tested the h4350 in colder temps? I am working on a build with Luke's new plug with an 0.040 bushing. This is a hunting rig so yemp it would see are down to zeroish. I am looking at either straight 4198 or maybe this h4350. It looks like either of these powders will push the 275's to the velocities I am looking for, it just comes down to accuracy and how it ignites for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 8:54:04 GMT -5
Longrange, it appears both 209 and large rifles were magnums in earnhardts test.
Bcarmon I think you will find 4198 much more stable in a 45, it's pretty darn slow for caliber with a 275gr bullet.
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Post by Richard on Jul 23, 2015 10:29:09 GMT -5
The BOMB is definitely nice and a quality product but quite pricey for the average hunter. They don't tell you that the extra bag assembly (and I did not look it up) is probably an additional $200.00. Earnhardt felt he was getting vertical with HIS lead sled. I, on the other hand, have not experienced vertical in my groups that I can attribute to my sled set up? So, I would not take it as carved in stone one way or the other. Your results with how your gun and your rest (whether tracked or not) respond could be different. I will have mine at the Kentucky challenge in a few weeks for viewing or shooting off of. I am not saying mine is the best or better than the BOMB just that as a benchrest shooter, I do know how a rifle should be able to recoil and I am very happy with my set up. Anyone is welcome to look thru pages of targets I have shot off of it to see that it is not condusive to vertical stringing........if it was, it would have been abandoned a long time ago. My gun is 14 lbs, has plates affixed to both the forend and butt to keep it aligned both front and rear. My 16 lbs. of shot is in a leather bag........not some steel plate; which I believe aids in reducing vibrations. The rubber front feet get grease on the bottom of them so the sled is free to recoil/slide rearward. The back foot has the ridges ground off to a smooth surface and slides on a nylon plate. If the sled was prone to vertical stringing, you could not tell in that 8 shot 3" 300 yard group I fired on Tuesday. Richard
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Post by airborneike on Jul 23, 2015 12:07:23 GMT -5
Earnhard/Josh,
Well done test and report.
Whats it like being up there in the stratosphere of muzzle loading?
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 17:29:21 GMT -5
Yes all tests were with 209 Magnum primers. Like myers said, with a 275 grn bullet, 4198 would be great. If you are worried about pressures getting into the upper 40K range, I'd go with IMR 3031. Airborneike...I've had my head in the clouds for a long time man...I'm always dizzy from the thin air.
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Post by bcarmon on Jul 23, 2015 21:11:24 GMT -5
What pressure rating are the Brux barrels that Luke is selling good for? These are the specs of the barrel I have coming, oh and I am using Luke's new plug. ◾1.200" X 5", ST .950" @ 8.5", ST .826" @ 26". Thanks
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