curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 21, 2014 13:32:54 GMT -5
Can you speak more to why you volume charge your loads rather than weigh each load individually?
Secondly I noticed your recipe load was 78 grains and you said 77.8 was close enough. Your results don't lie. Can you explain why the small amount of difference in the load does not make any difference in performance?
I can try to answer these questions, I shoot a 30 BR in competition using H4198 which is why I don't use it in my SML. It measures very well and once a powder measure is set it will produce .1 gr variation loads. In the small case as the 30 BR I can shoot 64-67 clicks or anywhere from 35.5-37 Gr and not see any difference in my groups. This gun will and has shot a .21" agg for 25 shots w/ a moving backer to verify. It seems to me H4198 is extremely temp stable as I've never had to change the load from spring through summer morning through evening like the 6PPC does. With the large volume of the 45 caliber it is even less sensitive to variations. Harrels makes some really good powder measures. I use the ones that have clicks and numbers so your load can be dupilcated when changing to another cartridge, load or powder. Once I've set my measure I write down the clicks and put on the tubes and when they are empty I just click my measure and dump. Never to weigh again.Hope this helps
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Post by Richard on Aug 21, 2014 13:37:13 GMT -5
Hank.............not to bust your chops either but you seem to make light of my .244" FIVE shot group with a cheap "twenty cent a-piece" 200 gr. FTX blem (as opposed to a MH)...........and witnessed by Herman, a long time contributor and excellent long range ML and BR shooter along with Bill........None of whom would lie! And that is with a duplex load............so don't be too quick to tell people to throw them away! AS far as my CF shooting? All my match results and records are available on the IBS web page. Like you say: I am able to back up the rifles I build with results in "registered" IBS matches. Maybe if the shooting is going to that close, you might have to put in "moving backers" to verify ALL shots thru the one hole? Oh, Alabama? Even OLD RAGGEDY Night Force scope are better than 98% of the new scopes on the market! You don't wear them out! Richard
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Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 13:47:08 GMT -5
I I shoot a 30 BR in competition using H4198 which is why I don't use it in my SML. It seems to me H4198 is extremely temp stable as I've never had to change the load from spring through summer morning through evening like the 6PPC does. With the large volume of the 45 caliber it is even less sensitive to variations. Curt, are you saying you do or don't use H4198 in your SML? As far as temp stability goes in an SML, your experience doesn't seem to track with many here. What ignition system are you using?
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curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 21, 2014 14:32:20 GMT -5
I do not use H4198 in my SML, I have switched from H322 to IMR 4198 since I had it and don't know if it is or not but will know more this winter. I said H-4198 seems to be temp stable, when I say temp stable I mean the fps changes form 30-90f less than other powders not of Hodgdon manufacture. Now I understand people have had ignition issues W/ H4198 when it is cold but I believe that is different from temp stability which is fps diferences but I have been wrong before and will be again. I use a 209 Win primer and now 5 gr Red Dot as a booster in lieu of 10gr of N110
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curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 21, 2014 14:39:33 GMT -5
I wonder if anyone will show up next yr w/ a 3" wide stock using a Farley rest to shoot their groups. Now that would be a sight to see a Muzzle loader BR rifle. And to shoot it free recoil style
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 14:41:14 GMT -5
SML.. Bring me up a few pounds of them shrimp and I will give you some private lessons... You can take second place next year!!! Jeff. The net is in the water,I need all the help I can get....I think I might turn Mennonite....did you hear about the 208 bowkill last year near the tobacco stick....WHEW.....
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Post by deadeye on Aug 21, 2014 14:57:39 GMT -5
in mz sabotless bullet fit is probably the most crucial imo//with this last build w/ just 2 weeks/really about 3 days I could walk the poi around by bullet fit alone/ nothing new from my other barrels/fps readings you can also +/or - 100fps either direction with not even approaching a hammer down. adjusting bullet tension will obviously change barrel harmonic's due to the speed difference. with a every consistent bullet seating from one shot to the 20th will result in better groups across the board if the barrel likes the load.
duplexes-very rewarding if you find the right one & can help to keep the temp sensitiveness down but imo is not a easy slam dunk to find very quickly. singles- burning rate & mixtures of duplex will also change the tuning fork.
but overall bullet fit must be very consistent. this is why I think most get better results looser fit
playing in the past for example I could use 70gns h4198 w/ 327 @ 2650 fps///tighten the bullet could goose it up near 2750fps> then loosen the bullet w/ approx. 73.0 gns/h4198 @2650 & get much better groups than the tighter/bullet @ 70gns* & the 2750fps load
the looser fit also takes an advantage of other variance's like bullet imperfection's that we see from bullet to bullet(diameter) even parkers//top that with a slightly different fouling causing the next loading slightly tighter. I know some of those will go into the group but play out long & you got problems.
then you have temp problems for some pressure starved loads & even all loads have fps movement.
hope this helps
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 15:29:33 GMT -5
Mr Hankins.. Great looking Muzzle loaders you got there. I like your attention to detail right down to the proper scope height and the addition of a ramrod. Ive always said a muzzle loader needed to have a ramrod affixed. Can you speak more to why you volume charge your loads rather than weigh each load individually? Secondly I noticed your recipe load was 78 grains and you said 77.8 was close enough. Your results don't lie. Can you explain why the small amount of difference in the load does not make any difference in performance? Thanks in advance. Ed.... I believe some people take this muzzleloading thing to seriously. It is not rocket science.. To pack a bullet in a barrel with a given charge under it is a pretty easy thing to do. The important part is doing it all the same, exactly the same every time. I believe that using my RCBS powder thrower that I've have for 20 years is an accurate of a charge as you can get. I have weighed hundreds of loads thrown with it and it is always with in plus-minus .2 grain. That's close enough for me and my results don't lie and I didn't get lucky.. I want to load and shoot. Not weigh, measure. count, wait, cool, it's load and shoot for me. the 77.8 grain is .2 less than I would used if I was at my shot and set up the measure here, but group shooting it don't matter because the group will still be in the same place, might be a foot low but the group will be there... Hope this helps.. Jeff.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 15:42:19 GMT -5
Because he's getting immediate and complete obturation so the rifle still groups up to it's and the shooter's potential. They were shooting for group, not best group closest to the bull. As powder charge varies slightly his group likely moves around a bit, most likely due to differing barrel harmonics produced, but it still groups great because he's using one of the most accurate bullets available and getting the most out of it's potential via what is likely instantaneous obturation. In my opinion. Rangeball. My groups were just left of the bull, exactly 1/2 inch left. Dead nuts on the line. I get 100% ignition is the biggest reason my rifles shoot so well. Kyle was shooting the 275 MH's and his groups were at the top of the food chain also. Accuracy comes from the total package of the rifle, components, optics, triggers, stock, bedding. and the shooter. Next year we can do a shoot where we can have each participant supply each other participant with 3 bullets. each bullet must be of a different make and weight. Each shooter has to shoot those bullets at a 100 yard target for groups. The shooter and rifle with the tightest group average wins. Do I have any contenders for next year. I will supply the 275 Grain BE's.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 15:57:38 GMT -5
Jeff, I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't hitting the bull, just that the slightly less powder charge didn't matter when shooting for groups as if they are the same amount the rifle should still group them with the obturation you get from the combination of your ignition system and the parker BEs. This bullet has a long history and reputation for being one of the most accurate shot by members here due to it's thinner jacket construction.
I agree accuracy relies on a combination of the factors such as you mentioned, if these are all equal bullet choice can play a large factor. Can you shoot a .451 barnes TEZ as accurately as a parker BE with your 78gr I4198 load? I'm genuinely interested.
I was also recalling one of your posts somewhere where you said the top five groups were shooting your rifle system and load. I took that to mean all were shooting the 78gr I4198 and 275 parker BE. Was this the case?
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 15:57:58 GMT -5
Hank.............not to bust your chops either but you seem to make light of my .244" FIVE shot group with a cheap "twenty cent a-piece" 200 gr. FTX blem (as opposed to a MH)...........and witnessed by Herman, a long time contributor and excellent long range ML and BR shooter along with Bill........None of whom would lie! And that is with a duplex load............so don't be too quick to tell people to throw them away! AS far as my CF shooting? All my match results and records are available on the IBS web page. Like you say: I am able to back up the rifles I build with results in "registered" IBS matches. Maybe if the shooting is going to that close, you might have to put in "moving backers" to verify ALL shots thru the one hole? Oh, Alabama? Even OLD RAGGEDY Night Force scope are better than 98% of the new scopes on the market! You don't wear them out! Richard Richard... Don't get to bent. It's all fun and games, and I wish I had the oputunity to shoot in some bench rest matches and maybe I would hold a record or two.. You had to be on cloud nine when you set those records, about like I am now with the performance of my rifles at the Kentucky challenge. Don't I get bragging rights. And a .244 group is still twice as big as my .120 group know matter what bullets you were shooting. LOL.. As far as the Duplexing. I will never duplex. If it takes duplexing to shoot good or reliable groups I will quit shooting muzzleloaders. If you want to duplex then more power to ya. It's just not for me and I don't think it's a place for a beginning shooter to start. So I will advise against it when ever I have a chance. We didn't need a moving backer at the shoot because every group was easy to see there was three shots in the paper. even my .120 group shows prof of three shots.. JEFF.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 16:00:28 GMT -5
Don't I get bragging rights. I think the issue is nobody likes a braggart. It rubs people the wrong way.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 16:02:28 GMT -5
I wonder if anyone will show up next yr w/ a 3" wide stock using a Farley rest to shoot their groups. Now that would be a sight to see a Muzzle loader BR rifle. And to shoot it free recoil style You could have seen that sight if you were there. I shot my groups from a cheap old Caldwell front rest and a rear bag. No muzzle brake,,, My shoulder took all the recoil. Maybe that's why I need back surgery.?
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 16:10:30 GMT -5
Jeff, I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't hitting the bull, just that the slightly less powder charge didn't matter when shooting for groups as if they are the same amount the rifle should still group them with the obturation you get from the combination of your ignition system and the parker BEs. This bullet has a long history and reputation for being one of the most accurate shot by members here due to it's thinner jacket construction. I agree accuracy relies on a combination of the factors such as you mentioned, if these are all equal bullet choice can play a large factor. Can you shoot a .451 barnes TEZ as accurately as a parker BE with your 78gr I4198 load? I'm genuinely interested. I was also recalling one of your posts somewhere where you said the top five groups were shooting your rifle system and load. I took that to mean all were shooting the 78gr I4198 and 275 parker BE. Was this the case? Yes every one was shooting the BE's and the 4198 load, but so were most of the guys there. As for shooting the Barns TEZ. I have no desire to shoot them at this time. What I have works and I need not to change it.... I did however test five different bullets one day and did a video of it. All the bullets shot plenty good enough to kill deer at 300 yards but the BE's produced a group that day of .160 at 100 yards and it was cold out that day February 19th 2014. So maybe the BE's are the most accurate...
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Post by deadeye on Aug 21, 2014 16:13:25 GMT -5
I wonder if anyone will show up next yr w/ a 3" wide stock using a Farley rest to shoot their groups. Now that would be a sight to see a Muzzle loader BR rifle. And to shoot it free recoil style You could have seen that sight if you were there. I shot my groups from a cheap old Caldwell front rest and a rear bag. No muzzle brake,,, My shoulder took all the recoil. Maybe that's why I need back surgery.? curt- fwiw had my hv edge br McMillan shown up on time there would have been a br mz but not the Farley//maybe next year w a jj loh/ and this shoot was not the reason for my br mz build- it was just something I wanted to do. it will double as duty in the field, I can see people cringing- a McMillan hv br edge w/ swivel studs
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Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 16:16:12 GMT -5
I think they are highly accurate and a logical choice if your goal is to shoot the tightest groups possible. The new MH type bullet with the same jacket thickness as the BE will probably also shoot lights out. I just wish they offered a bonded version for hunting. I know as is they kill deer dead, but they are too explosive for my comfort level. With my luck a BC will make a split second move just as I pull the trigger and I'll just get a splat on his shoulder bone.
But your point about the Barnes backs up what I'm saying, I think. I would suspect the don't shoot as well from your system as the BE as they are much harder to obturate. That's the only point I was making.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 16:18:15 GMT -5
Don't I get bragging rights. I think the issue is nobody likes a braggart. It rubs people the wrong way. Well sorry for bragging but you will have to suck it up,, When I came on this board I got crap from every direction. I was told to prove it and that is what I did.. So at this time I am laying claim to build THE MOST ACCURATE MUZZLELOADER IN THE WORLD. Till next year when someone shows up to take that title from me I will hold on to it. Rangeball? ?? maybe it will be you... The shoot is open to all contenders. Some of my biggest credits showed up and we all left as friends... Am I a boastful winner or are you a sore looser???
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Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 16:19:52 GMT -5
Best of luck to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 17:04:51 GMT -5
I think the issue is nobody likes a braggart. It rubs people the wrong way. Well sorry for bragging but you will have to suck it up,, When I came on this board I got crap from every direction. I was told to prove it and that is what I did.. So at this time I am laying claim to build THE MOST ACCURATE MUZZLELOADER IN THE WORLD. Till next year when someone shows up to take that title from me I will hold on to it. Rangeball? ?? maybe it will be you... The shoot is open to all contenders. Some of my biggest credits showed up and we all left as friends... Am I a boastful winner or are you a sore looser??? Enjoy it Jeff, you did take a bunch of crap in the beginning....Deadeye ain't gonna be the only one with Redemption/Vengeance in mind next year,lol.....
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curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 21, 2014 17:20:43 GMT -5
You could have seen that sight if you were there. I shot my groups from a cheap old Caldwell front rest and a rear bag. No muzzle brake,,, My shoulder took all the recoil. Maybe that's why I need back surgery.? curt- fwiw had my hv edge br McMillan shown up on time there would have been a br mz but not the Farley//maybe next year w a jj loh/ and this shoot was not the reason for my br mz build- it was just something I wanted to do. it will double as duty in the field, I can see people cringing- a McMillan hv br edge w/ swivel studs Can you post some pics of this rifle? If I can make it next yr I'll bring my Farley.
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Post by deadeye on Aug 21, 2014 17:56:28 GMT -5
curt- fwiw had my hv edge br McMillan shown up on time there would have been a br mz but not the Farley//maybe next year w a jj loh/ and this shoot was not the reason for my br mz build- it was just something I wanted to do. it will double as duty in the field, I can see people cringing- a McMillan hv br edge w/ swivel studs Can you post some pics of this rifle? If I can make it next yr I'll bring my Farley. curt- the stock is still not here yet/when it is I will post when it is ready probably mid-October//this build has taken me approx. 2 years & almost done. even if it would have been there(completed) it would not have shaked ole hank-his game is tight. it takes imo in competition,man,machine & a bit of luck.. that's why no one person dominate's every time even tony boyer/jmho
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Post by 7mmfreak on Aug 21, 2014 18:01:01 GMT -5
Jeff,
How long you been waiting on that stick? My last one showed up after 7 months. The one before that about 6 months.
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curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 21, 2014 20:20:23 GMT -5
Can you post some pics of this rifle? If I can make it next yr I'll bring my Farley. curt- the stock is still not here yet/when it is I will post when it is ready probably mid-October//this build has taken me approx. 2 years & almost done. even if it would have been there(completed) it would not have shaked ole hank-his game is tight. it takes imo in competition,man,machine & a bit of luck.. that's why no one person dominate's every time even tony boyer/jmho and a good set of Wind Flags
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Post by deadeye on Aug 21, 2014 20:21:25 GMT -5
bout 6 mo's due any day.
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Post by Richard on Aug 21, 2014 20:41:16 GMT -5
Oh Hank? I will agree the .244 is twice as big but you failed to acknowledge there were two more shots in it And you know what? Sometimes you have to brag a little to get your point across. Then there are the people who brag but have nothing to back it up except their Key board!...............I like your way of thinking Hank! Let your gun talk not your computer. Being on this forum for the past seven years, I have learned to separate the "wheat from the chaff" and I can tell you are in the Wheat column! Wish I could have attended your shoot. Richard
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 21, 2014 21:30:37 GMT -5
Oh Hank? I will agree the .244 is twice as big but you failed to acknowledge there were two more shots in it And you know what? Sometimes you have to brag a little to get your point across. Then there are the people who brag but have nothing to back it up except their Key board!...............I like your way of thinking Hank! Let your gun talk not your computer. Being on this forum for the past seven years, I have learned to separate the "wheat from the chaff" and I can tell you are in the Wheat column! Wish I could have attended your shoot. Richard I wish you could have been there also,,, with your best rig... I would have been able to add you to the 18 other Doug's board members that went home with a hand shake and a new friend.. All I can say is my guns did the talking last weekend, HANDS DOWN,, CASE CLOSED. Guys can make excuses and reasons why my guns out performed every other rifle there but when you are shooting in a match there is no re-do's The groups tells the story. I have been on the board for almost a year, read it for several years and never joined because I didn't take the time to reply, would just read it on my cell phone when I was waiting in line or doing something where I could just jump on and read. I can see through the smoke here also...and there is a lot of smoke. I never bragged about how accurate my rifles were on this board until after this shoot. Except for when I put out the challenge for all other makers to back up their claim. You see none of them showed up to put their stuff on the bench. Not one Bad Bull, not one Big Dawg, Not one Deathrow, Not one Ashland Gun innovations. Not one Bobby Hart. What I got was a bunch of guys that love to hunt and shoot and that is what made the shoot such a success. I could not have asked for a better bunch of guys to have been there. You have a lot of talkers in this world but very few doers. I learned that a long time ago. My key board ain't backing up nothing. The proof is in the targets at the end of the day. Maybe next year we will have a new heavy Weight Champ. Will it be you? Jeff.
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Post by longrange on Aug 22, 2014 4:01:05 GMT -5
I think it's great that that there is somewhere to go to shoot for fun and have friendly competition and meet others ( in person) that enjoy smokeless muzzleloaders.
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Post by edge on Aug 22, 2014 7:20:23 GMT -5
Next year we can do a shoot where we can have each participant supply each other participant with 3 bullets. each bullet must be of a different make and weight. Each shooter has to shoot those bullets at a 100 yard target for groups. The shooter and rifle with the tightest group average wins. Do I have any contenders for next year. I will supply the 275 Grain BE's. I'll supply a .308 150 grain Nosler Accubond edge.
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Post by rickyb on Aug 22, 2014 8:25:00 GMT -5
Jeff I may never get out to the Kentucky Challenge but you have ever right to brag. You did take a lot of heat on this board and you did come up with the Challenge. Mostly because of all the heat you took on this board. I have played a lot of golf in my life and I can promise you I have learned to leave my ego at the door. It cost me a lot of money before I realized that some people are just better. So enjoy your accomplishment and brag all you want. I think it's fair and it ain't bragging if you can back it up. Rick
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Post by edwardamason on Aug 22, 2014 8:57:26 GMT -5
You guys should throw in a game of tic tac toe next year for fun.
Set up a boards of tic tack toe with playing cards at 300 yards and pick pairs to see who goes against each other. Have elimination rounds and increase the ranges by 50 yards each elimination round. The lone shooter is the tic tac toe champion.
It's a lot of fun.
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