|
Post by Richard on Aug 19, 2014 14:53:12 GMT -5
No, seriously, just moving along with some variations on the Clay/4198 stuff Excellent shooting day. Overcast, 74*, 100% Humidity and not wind...........a short shower did not bother a thing. I thought I would drop the 65 gr. of H-4198 down to 62 gr. but still keep the 5 gr. of Clays for the booster and see what happened. Not surprisingly, the velocity dropped around 75 fps............from around 2875 to 2800 fps with the 200 gr. FTX. My first fouler was a 300 gr. XTP with a 10/50 ....4227/H4198 duplex...........Which would NOT ignite (A very clean smooth bore) So now the duplex was all mixed up but I stuffed it back down and put a magnum primer on it and still no "fire in the hole!" .............Had to pull the plug and push it out. Reloaded it with 5/60 Clays/4198 and the same 300 gr. XTP and Bam! 2558 fps. So I started the first group with the 200 FTX and the 5/62 duplex. With the exception of the first shot being a tad wide, the next four shots went into .335" with the first opening it up to .950" Next up, I used the same duplex with the 225 FTX. This group opened up a bit with the third shot being out giving it an overall 1.9" group but the best four in .885" For the third group (still the 225 FTX) I upped the Clays to 7 gr. and dropped the 4198 to 60 gr. After three shots, I gave up and went to 5/60. This tightened it up a bit but nothing like I was getting with the 200 FTX. For the fifth group, I went back to the 5/62 and moved it out to 200 yards. Here it did not disappoint where three shots (in a row) gave .956", four - 1.150" and all five in 1.447". It looks like five grains of Clays with from 62 to 65 gr. of H-4198 is providing a sweet spot for this bullet out of my rifle. I may try upping the 4198 a little more to see if it effects the accuracy one way or the other. The 225 might benefit from other ratio's or a different powder..............Always another combination to test That is what keeps me interested in shooting this SML. Richard
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Aug 19, 2014 16:14:09 GMT -5
Richard, in the third line you mentioned 65gr. of Clays which I assume was a mistake. You might edit this before somebody gets blowed up.
|
|
|
Post by dannoboone on Aug 19, 2014 17:19:11 GMT -5
Have been wondering why you were using 4227 as a booster in the first place.?. The stuff did that to me years ago and I never used it again. Then I tried it in .45 Colt loads since there were published loads for it. Incomplete burns every time, even though it did go "boom". Dirty. Wonder if it would even make good fertilizer?
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Aug 19, 2014 19:52:21 GMT -5
Got it Greg...thanks. Dano................The reason was I had tried them some time ago on another load and had two of them left..........just though I would use them up Funny..........Herman loaded up 69 grains of H-4198 with a 250 grain SST (SABOT-LESS - .45) on a fouled barrel and he got a NO IGNITION! I think he also is convinced that duplexing is the way to go. The problem is PRESSURE! Just get a bullet that is slightly on the loose side..........then couple that with cold weather and the buck of a lifetime might just slip away! I firmly believe that even if you just put 3 grains of Clays/Red Dot on top of the vent liner/bushing, you will insure positiv ignition. If you like 69 gr. of H-4198?...........put in 3 gr. of Clays and 65 gr. of H-4198. Your velocity will probably be about the same. Just my opinion:) Richard
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 19, 2014 20:18:16 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe a duplex load is better than a sungle. At the Kentucky Challange I saw Hankins guns shoot 78 gr 4198 and shoot 1 hole groups at 100 and almost 1 hole groups at 200. Jeff uses a powder thrower and does not even weigh each load. I just can't understand how his guns work so well. Is it the 3k optics, the 30" barrel, a good trigger finger or maybe the jewel 1/2 lb trigger or a combo .. The jury is out for me.
I don't believe powder/ duplex is the answer. I can see the benefit in cold weather, but then again the Hankins gun shot in -4 weather. So I just don't know.
I am still new to the SML but I learn everyday and spend way to much time trying to figure all this out. It's above my knowledge level but I plan to improve and I guarantee I will be at next years shoot with better optics, lighter trigger and a single load of 4198. The first two will probably make the most difference. And a lot more bench time to tweak my gun Just my 2 cents worth.
|
|
|
Post by edwardamason on Aug 19, 2014 20:37:34 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe a duplex load is better than a sungle. At the Kentucky Challange I saw Hankins guns shoot 78 gr 4198 and shoot 1 hole groups at 100 and almost 1 hole groups at 200. Jeff uses a powder thrower and does not even weigh each load. I just can't understand how his guns work so well. Is it the 3k optics, the 30" barrel, a good trigger finger or maybe the jewel 1/2 lb trigger or a combo .. The jury is out for me. I don't believe powder/ duplex is the answer. I can see the benefit in cold weather, but then again the Hankins gun shot in -4 weather. So I just don't know. I am still new to the SML but I learn everyday and spend way to much time trying to figure all this out. It's above my knowledge level but I plan to improve and I guarantee I will be at next years shoot with better optics, lighter trigger and a single load of 4198. The first two will probably make the most difference. And a lot more bench time to tweak my gun Just my 2 cents worth. Volumetric measuring. I'm sure that has been discussed before.
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Aug 20, 2014 13:40:35 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe a duplex load is better than a sungle. At the Kentucky Challange I saw Hankins guns shoot 78 gr 4198 and shoot 1 hole groups at 100 and almost 1 hole groups at 200. Jeff uses a powder thrower and does not even weigh each load. I just can't understand how his guns work so well. Is it the 3k optics, the 30" barrel, a good trigger finger or maybe the jewel 1/2 lb trigger or a combo .. The jury is out for me. I don't believe powder/ duplex is the answer. I can see the benefit in cold weather, but then again the Hankins gun shot in -4 weather. So I just don't know. I am still new to the SML but I learn everyday and spend way to much time trying to figure all this out. It's above my knowledge level but I plan to improve and I guarantee I will be at next years shoot with better optics, lighter trigger and a single load of 4198. The first two will probably make the most difference. And a lot more bench time to tweak my gun Just my 2 cents worth. Go back and look at his videos. Notice the POI shift in his groups. When it is cold and the gun is left in the cold overnight, his POI is low. The first group he shot was taking the gun out into the cold. I know from experience and testing that the barrel will take quite awhile to cool to ambient going from indoors to outdoors even in 17* weather. That group was higher in POI. He starts out his next video mentioning his gun was hitting low, but the exceptional one hole group he fires in 49* weather is dead nuts on the dot. Not to mention, 2 out of 3 groups in sub freezing temps were over MOA. The cold turned a highly skilled marksman with a super accurate gun into a not so accurate gun. It has nothing to do with the shooter or the gun, it is the load! I can take my duplex load and shoot it in 80* weather or 14* weather and it still shoots sub MOA at 200yds, not a 100. His system behaves the same way with 4198 as my guns do. When the thermometer plummets, the velocity goes down and the groups open up. Not a concern if you live in an area where you do not have to deal with the cold and even if you do live in a cold climate you might not miss what you are aiming at, but why settle. This is not a knock on his guns, I would take his system over what we use every day of the week and twice on Sundays, but I would still shoot a duplex even if I was fortunate enough to own one of his masterpieces.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Aug 20, 2014 14:02:18 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe a duplex load is better than a sungle...SNIP. IMO, "BETTER" is subjective! IMO, the problem often comes from using bullets/loads that are not really designed for each other. Now if you pick up a load manual you will find that hankinsrfls loads are very close to those listed in the manuals. Now if you use sabots instead of full size bullets then you need to be cautious of loads that have too high of a pressure. IMO, if a 78 grain load of IMR4198 with the 275 bullet should theoretically yield 50kpsi and 3,000 fps and it only yields say 2600 fps and low 40kpsi then you have a problem with ignition. Is the bullet too loose, do you not have enough compression, is your BP too fouled, etc? Often these issues can be corrected with a duplex load that gives you a quicker rise in pressure and gets the powder into a more normal ignition situation. It is not better, just a different way to skin the cat. IMI edge.
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 15:25:40 GMT -5
I was just replying to the "Kentucky challenge loads ". I was there. His guns shot exceptional. I believe mine can do the same. Just need to spend a few more dollars. We will see the next get together we have.
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 15:53:24 GMT -5
I got a pound of 4759 at the challenge and I plan on duplexing for deer season. Not sure if I need to. We will see.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Aug 20, 2014 16:11:18 GMT -5
Hank obviously builds good guns and has a good ignition system. Will it produce better accuracy than our standard 209/Savage plug??? That is questionable? Providing your primer is sealing properly I believe they will produce equal results..........accuracy wise! I suspect from his guns that he is probably either a benchrest shooter or close to it. Like Hank, I am not bragging but myself and Herman probably put more shots down range in a year than most members do in a life time. We shoot EVERY week without fail. We also shoot competitively in 600 yard benchrest matches every month. Besides the SML's and bench guns I shoot my custom built long range pistols where 1" or less five shot groups at 300 yards are relatively common. So what I am saying is it takes a lot of trigger pulling to be able to consistently shoot good groups................and particularly with a ML. The person who gets out three or four times a year to do a little shooting and sight in his hunting rifle does not have the trigger time to do it consistently. It is like every sport out there..............If you want to be good, you have to get the "seat-time!" I would guarantee that 95% of the people who buy one of Hank's rifles will not be able to shoot as well as he does. Deadeye and Earnhardt are other examples of dedicated shooters. These rifles, whether Hank puts it together, Hillbill, Rossman, myself are more accurate than the average hunter can shoot them. You can spend all the money you want and buy the very best, most accurate rifle but if you don't spend the time at the bench, shooting and tweaking your loads, you are wasting your money if you want to shoot "bug-holes!" Richard
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 17:17:41 GMT -5
Amazing. Guy picked up his Hankins build day of shoot. Another guy who don't even own a Hankins build used one of his guns and both outshot us. To bad we didn't have a better DMB turnout to prove the obvious results different.
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 17:18:59 GMT -5
Hard to tweak a load on a rcbs powder thrower.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Aug 20, 2014 18:25:00 GMT -5
You don't have any type of beam scale? You need a scale to set the powder measure? Alabama.............if you are a good shooter and accustomed to shooting harder kicking rifles or shooting off a sled, it does not take much to shoot well? I would bet Dale Earnhardt Jr. could jump in you sedan and drive it a whole lot better than you could! I have taken many of our club members hunting rifles (that they already wasted a box of ammo on) and got it sighted in with two or three shots?..........as long as I can see where the first shot hit! Richard
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 18:40:15 GMT -5
I'm sure he set the powder measure with a scale. The point is I saw him load all his propellant with a powder measure. I'm not trying to bash anyone. Richard you can take it how ever you want but he didn't weigh a charge, he didnt " duplex". He smoked us and probably would have smoked your best bench gun .. Period. There is more to the story than duplexing. Anyone here who wants to compete against him needs more than clays and 4198.
|
|
|
Post by rickyb on Aug 20, 2014 20:10:21 GMT -5
Richard you have given a lot of good advice. I have followed the Kentucky challenge threads and I'm very interested in Hankins rifles. Are they better! I don't have a clue but you are 100% on mark when you say most guys can't shoot to a guns potential. A lot of truth in your post about seat time and good shooters are good shooter period. Alabama you are making some good points. Heck you were there and by reading your threads you were impressed. Got no answers but enjoyed reading this thread.
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 20:38:29 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe a duplex load is better than a sungle. At the Kentucky Challange I saw Hankins guns shoot 78 gr 4198 and shoot 1 hole groups at 100 and almost 1 hole groups at 200. Jeff uses a powder thrower and does not even weigh each load. I just can't understand how his guns work so well. Is it the 3k optics, the 30" barrel, a good trigger finger or maybe the jewel 1/2 lb trigger or a combo .. The jury is out for me. I don't believe powder/ duplex is the answer. I can see the benefit in cold weather, but then again the Hankins gun shot in -4 weather. So I just don't know. I am still new to the SML but I learn everyday and spend way to much time trying to figure all this out. It's above my knowledge level but I plan to improve and I guarantee I will be at next years shoot with better optics, lighter trigger and a single load of 4198. The first two will probably make the most difference. And a lot more bench time to tweak my gun Just my 2 cents worth. Alabama.. The scope I have on my ML is an old (7-8 years) Nightforce NXS 5.5-22-56. I bought it used and it was beat up pretty bad when I got it. I actually like my Sighttron better and I could see the targets at 300 yards much clearer with the Sightron than I could with the Nightforce. It is a nice scope and todays new price from Opticsplanet is $1719.00. so save yourself $1300.00 and don't pay $3000.00 for it. The Sightron can be bought for under $900.00 so you can save a lot more if you got that route. The barrel is 29.5 inches and the Jewel trigger is set at 1 pound. Does all this add up to a better rifle? NO...........The rifle is the same,,,, Its the excessories you added to it that helps make it shoot better. Its like building a hot rod motor for your car. You can get a lot better performance from it just by adding and changing things on the out side. The rifle is the same way. All these things makes it easier to shoot,, but in the end if its accuracy you want you need these extras, IMO.. In a drag race the only thing that matters is who crosses the finish line first. In a shooting match the only thing that really counts at the end of the day is who shot the best. Also take into consideration what kind of rifle you want to build. A big 12 pound rifle with a one pound trigger ain't worth a darn if you are humping it through the woods in fridged weather with gloves on... You will then need that 3-9 scope and a 3-5 pound trigger, and a short light weight barrel to make it practical to hike it for hours.. But you can't expect that rifle to compete against the big 12 pounder. I am with you on not believing that powder duplexing is the answer. I will almost say that it make it worse. One more variable that you have to worry about. Through that duplexing idea out the window and you will be bullets ahead...... LOL.. I hope to see you at next years shoot and I promise you..........Better optics..........Better trigger.......... and shooting a single powder load is the answer for you to tighten up your groups. I wish I had taken the time to help some of you guys that were having problems on the bench but at the time I was so busy with all that I had to keep going that I didn't even get to watch most of you shoot. I only shot my 45 a total 15 times the day of the shoot. I know this because I sized 100 parker BE's that morning and on Sunday a traded Hunter 60 BE's for 2 pounds of 4198. I just counted the left overs in the bag and I have 25. That leaves me shooting 15 that day.. I can answer one more question for you too. My gun works so well because of my ignition system 100% seal, 100% powder burn. There was five guys there shooting my guns. Each and every one of them was using my load of 78 grains of 4198. Those five shooters shot the top five groups for the day. Mine was .127 ant 100 yards and .669 at 200 yards. The others were super tight also. Lorne Glass was shaking so bad that I was suprised he could hit the back stop and he missed the barrel with quite a bit of powder when he reloaded for his second shot and still kept it in the .5 MOA range. Mike Trentman was barfing all morning and he still shot a .5 group. The young man that wants to buy one of my rifles and showed up to see them in action fired one shot (the first shot ever from a muzzleloader) and the next three he fired was in one hole. And I believe Jeff Blakely was in the top five and he was shooting one on my rifles he got it two weeks before the shoot. Slamed it in a slave stock the week befor and headed to KY. to kick BUTT, and Kick Butt He Did...........340 yard shot at a Dip Can......... Are my rifles the most accutate muzzleloaders in the world or did I get lucky and pick up a couple hillbillys and 2 Hoosiers to shoot my guns. Some might think the jury is still out, but I think the verdict is in... What do you all think... The proof is in the little bitty groups shot consistantly with my rifles. ..... I am willing to help any of you better your rifles and shooting abilities. If you want to talk just give me a call. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 21:32:37 GMT -5
Jeff , As in football. Everyone here was invited to the bowl game. Many months in advance. Some showed some didn't. You won this years Super Bowl. I just hope next year some of the arm chair quarterbacks will make a presence and let's see the results. I will be there!!!
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 21:44:51 GMT -5
So Jeff, you have a ol beat up scope, 1 lb trigger, 29 1/2 in barrel and you honestly believe your accuracy is due to a no blow by breech plug? My primers come out just the way they went in. Shiny!!
Just trying to figure things out here. Your challenge was probably the best thing to ever happen to SML. Lots of busy minds working on mouse traps!!
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 20, 2014 21:47:54 GMT -5
They were the most accurate at the shoot. In the world I have no idea. But I bet more of the worlds guns will be there next year.
All heavy weight champions eventually get knocked out.
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 21:54:12 GMT -5
Jeff , As in football. Everyone here was invited to the bowl game. Many months in advance. Some showed some didn't. You won this years Super Bowl. I just hope next year some of the arm chair quarterbacks will make a presence and let's see the results. I will be there!!! Alabama.... I hope to see the best the board has to offer next year, to me the guys that showed up are the best and most determined to learn and improve. but as you know old dogs bark a lot but seldom bite.... Lol....
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 22:01:31 GMT -5
So Jeff, you have a ol beat up scope, 1 lb trigger, 29 1/2 in barrel and you honestly believe your accuracy is due to a no blow by breech plug? My primers come out just the way they went in. Shiny!! Just trying to figure things out here. Your challenge was probably the best thing to ever happen to SML. Lots of busy minds working on mouse traps!! Alabama. Maybe not the NO BLOW BY PLUG but the 100% IGNITION with a hotter primer designed to ignite large volumes of powder. The 209 was never meant to be use for what some of you are using them for. Back in the day when you were igniting 80 or 90 grains of FFFg it was ok but 125 grains of H4350 is a total different ball game. Have you ever reloaded shotgun shells. The amount of powder used is fractional that of these HI PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADERS. Back to the car motor.. You can build it with bigger pistons, longer strokes, higher compression and oversized cams but if you just put in the 87 octane pump gas it won't do you a bit of good... JEFF.
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 22:10:49 GMT -5
They were the most accurate at the shoot. In the world I have no idea. But I bet more of the worlds guns will be there next year. All heavy weight champions eventually get knocked out. I want to say "the world" just because it makes me feel good and My rifles did kick butt..... every butt,,,,,, no offence,,,,,,, we were there for fun and that's what we had,,,, fun and a lot of it.. along with some darn good SHRIMP. AT this time I am the "HEAVY WEIGHT CHAMP OF DOUGS BOARD" Maybe next year some one will show up and knock me out in round one or it might 13 rounds to get the job done. We have at least one challenger all ready. Look at what happened to ROCKY... came from nothing, rose to the top and fell back to nothing in the end.... I am glad everyone's mind is churning, because if someone comes up with a better ignition system and beats me 3 to 1 I will be buying my system from them... Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 22:40:21 GMT -5
I'm sure he set the powder measure with a scale. The point is I saw him load all his propellant with a powder measure. I'm not trying to bash anyone. Richard you can take it how ever you want but he didn't weigh a charge, he didnt " duplex". He smoked us and probably would have smoked your best bench gun .. Period. There is more to the story than duplexing. Anyone here who wants to compete against him needs more than clays and 4198. I set my powder measure with Hillbills scales. not my own. I weighed one charge and Bill's scale said 77.8 grains. I told him that's close enough and proceeded to through about fifty charges in my little plastic test tubes. I used them for the shoot and never went back to the scales or the thrower. Richards best bench gun? Yes I would have smoked that one too... Hopefully Richard will attend next year and bring his best.. Maybe even toss in a few center fire matches. I could use my 6mm AI, 300 WSM, or the little 338 Lapua Rogue I have... You guys pick.. Next year could be some real fun.. LOL. I have never shot a bench rest match in my life. I have never been to a match even as a spectator, I shoot very little, contrary to what some of you guys may think. However I know what it takes to shoot good. It's like shooting a bow. Total concentration and good form must be held every shot. If you jerk the trigger or pull your head back just before the rifle fires, you will never be able to shoot good groups. You must be optically centered on every shot or you will never be able to hold .5 MOA. You must have good glass and a trigger that brakes when you want it to every time. When I finish a rifle I will sight it in and test fire a group of three shots and 9 times out of 10 that takes five shots and then I pack up the gun and get it to the customer. After all it's his gun to shoot. I guarantee all my rifles 30 caliber and under to shoot .5 MOA at 100 yards, I have never shipped one that I did not personally shoot .5 MOA before it was boxed and shipped. Yes these rifles cost a lot of money,,,, Upwards to $6000.00-$7000.00 or more, but if you only want the best and you only want one then this is the way to go. You can own five smokeless powder muzzleloaders that all shoot 1.5 moa but at the end of the day the best shooter you have is a 1.5 moa rifle. Now I hope no one is getting offended by my post. I am the kind of guy that will tell you how it is, or at least how I think it is and that's what we should all do.. Richard.... No offence towards you either.. my post are all meant with good intentions. Alabama.. I wish we would have traded guns for 3 shots just to see if the results were the same... Jeff.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 23:36:46 GMT -5
Most here are on the MODeer train....But want to shoot something that will kick your a$$, you one hole shootin Doggg,lol.......
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 20, 2014 23:46:48 GMT -5
SML.. Bring me up a few pounds of them shrimp and I will give you some private lessons... You can take second place next year!!! Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 8:51:37 GMT -5
Wow...
Using Edge's estimate above, if the 78 gr of I4198 load creates 50k of psi that's one of the reasons for the accuracy right there. The 275 BE is perhaps the easiest obturating bullet available that will stand up to this type of load. I imagine it is squashed into the rifling in the split nano second after ignition occurs leading to potential greater accuracy and repeatability regarding barrel harmonics.
For those of you not in the top five who shot the challenge, what load, psi and bullet were you shooting?
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Aug 21, 2014 9:52:49 GMT -5
Rangeball, I believe you are spot on. I was shooting 70 gr I4198 with the 275 MH. I would really like to be able to recover a bullet and see how its engraved. This weekend I'm going to try a stack of wet newspaper and see if I can recover one.
|
|
|
Post by edwardamason on Aug 21, 2014 12:07:47 GMT -5
Mr Hankins..
Great looking Muzzle loaders you got there. I like your attention to detail right down to the proper scope height and the addition of a ramrod. Ive always said a muzzle loader needed to have a ramrod affixed.
Can you speak more to why you volume charge your loads rather than weigh each load individually?
Secondly I noticed your recipe load was 78 grains and you said 77.8 was close enough. Your results don't lie. Can you explain why the small amount of difference in the load does not make any difference in performance?
Thanks in advance.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Aug 21, 2014 13:17:11 GMT -5
Because he's getting immediate and complete obturation so the rifle still groups up to it's and the shooter's potential. They were shooting for group, not best group closest to the bull. As powder charge varies slightly his group likely moves around a bit, most likely due to differing barrel harmonics produced, but it still groups great because he's using one of the most accurate bullets available and getting the most out of it's potential via what is likely instantaneous obturation.
In my opinion.
|
|