Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 22:08:43 GMT -5
None of this probably makes much sense, but there was an above post that has been deleted.
I chose to go the 375 route because the heavy 375's tend to yield a higher BC than the same weight of a .416. I pondered the idea of a .408 using the chey tac bullets as this would essentially share a lot of what has been learned by the owners of 416's. I hope to have my 375 running and accurate by the time the Kentucky challenge rolls around. I will primarily be shooting sierra matchkings for range use and the CEB 350's for hunting. As cowhunter stated a lot of us are in new lands with where we want our builds to take us. I wish everyone the best luck and above all safe testing. Cole Myers
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 4:23:17 GMT -5
There is much yet to be learned about the "Muzztac" guns we see built here from time to time. tens of thousands of rounds have been fired in the .50s & .45s with lots of fine tuning over the years and still we are learning after all that testing and fine tuning.
The true long range guns are pretty scarce and not real friendly to shoot so it is a much slower process. I wish I lived somewhere that were more user friendly for my .416s, it is difficult to find a suitable range to stretch them to their potential and even more so to find the time get it done. One thing for sure, extreme caution must be exercised when going into uncharted waters with any unknown caliber. All the more reason "Muzztacs" are intriguing and exciting. I have never hunted dangerous game but I guess these guns have the same allure. One thing for certain, with these calibers one could use them as a big bear gun or anything else that walks this earth.
Its fun to read the posts and look at the pics and targets of the "Muzztac" shooters but as any of the gents will tell you, when you sit down on the bench behind one you gain a whole new respect for these beasts after pulling the trigger. My hat goes off to anyone that is willing to build and test one. I might take mine to the "challenge" and watch some guys shoot it just for giggles...LOL...
|
|
|
Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 17, 2014 9:47:57 GMT -5
This is a part of muzzleloading that I find intriguing but have no interest in pursuing.
I do enough long range shooting to understand that past 500yds any real error in wind can make for a really miserable hunt so I call that my limit in a hunting situation. I thoroughly enjoy long range paper and steel shooting. Nothing will make you better than quality UKD practice.
I also am in the camp of, "ounces make pounds and pounds make pain" so I refuse to carry anything heavier than necessary. As a result I tend to build my rifles to be just heavy enough to make shooting them comfortable while staying portable. So, in a sense I plan around the bullet too since I shoot the most wind resistant bullet I can find at a moderate velocity and build a gun that I can stand shooting and carrying.
I hate muzzlebrakes with a passion and they are necessary for bigger guns (especially if a gun is light for caliber or produces high velocity; see paragraph above) unless you have a can and I think (after some long and serious contemplation) a can on a muzzleloader would be a real PITA.
That said, I support what you guys are doing (within the limits of safety) because you can't know how far we can take things without someone willing to push. Your success has a trickle down effect for all the rest of us.
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 17, 2014 9:53:55 GMT -5
I live in the great state of Illinois. Here we are only allowed to use shotguns for deer hunting.... We can use High power rifles for varmint hunting but those ppl are not as numerous. We have great deer and lots of places to shoot long range. And we have LOT S of hunters and guest hunters..... Along with that we have LOTS of idiots. You know the person who just shoots....and hopes....or shoots at a sound...or what he THOUGHT was his quarry..... But we still have those long ranges...flat ranges... With lots of farm houses for backstops.... See where I M going with this..... The home where I hunt is 1/4mile away.... There are a LOT more that are right 1/2mile away. So we kind of keep it hush what we have come across with these new designs..... Like the .45cal improvements ...500yd accurate guns.....great for what we developed them for. The 50bmg has brought great scrutiny down upon itself from the government in the recent past due to its capabilities.... Now a lot of states have tried to put a ban on ALL 50cal. No matter what it is. I guess I am saying . I would hope that we don't start advertising that someone has come up with a rifle Muzzeleloader ...that doesn't need a ffl license or form to fill out..... Available to anyone who can get their hands on....and shoot accurately out to over a mile. I feel if we keep going in this MUZZTAC.? Direction sooner or later we are going to bring REGULATION down upon ourselves.... And when they figure out the MUZZTAC....... For states that are shotgun only states.... The 500yd guns ain't far behind. So I am going out on a limb here and going to say what some have conversed about in messages..... Hey guys don't ruin it for the rest of us....let's not put EVERYTHING we do out there for public scrutiny.....never know when the NSA might be reading here....about these MUZZTAC.... Please don't be angry at me for voicing MY opinion Thanks Drop
|
|
|
Post by jims on Apr 17, 2014 11:05:12 GMT -5
to myers129: At one time near you outside of Willshire they had a gun club with longer range shooting possibilites for you to test before KY.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:31:42 GMT -5
Jims, thanks for the info. I know a farmer down in whilshire that I can make 850 back to the river with a hill for backstop. If I can beat the crops I'll be down there. I will check about that range being usable anymore. I know there's a 1200 somewhere around Angola but I think membership is around 250 a year.
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 17, 2014 12:36:07 GMT -5
Hey I must have deleted my original post. I knew you could edit posts, but now I see you can delete them too. A very handy tool. I was telling Meyers129 the definition of Muzztac. A Muzztac is a thumb tack, used at shooting competitions in Kentucky, before the moonshine comes out, used to mark where the first bullet hit, since the second bullet might go in the same hole without leaving a mark. Then you may have competitors from Tennessee claiming they hit in the same mark, but the muzztac doesn't lie.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:09:13 GMT -5
You sure the moonshine isn't flying in Hawaii? Might just be the full moon, it drives the cows crazy! Now I gotta go buy thumb tacks for the Kentucky challenge, more expenses:( What color are you gonna bring hillbill? Don't want any confusion:)
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Apr 17, 2014 13:54:18 GMT -5
7mm and Droptine are on the money with their posts. I am a competitor in IBS 600 and used to be, for eight years, in 1K. I know first hand what it takes to shoot winning groups at those distances with highly tuned CF rifles I build myself. On the other hand, I also know what small changes in wind and weather conditions can do to your POI at those distances. Stretching beyond 400 to 500 yards without the aid of sighter shots is like Peeing into the wind. It would be great if there were competition like we have in the BR game for such rifles. Lead sleds and no weight requirements where guys could really play and wring out all the accuracy possible with those muzztac's. Unfortunately to shoot at a deer at distances beyond what I have indicated, on some butt cold Illinois windy farm is beyond ethical.......That is my $0.02 Richard
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 17, 2014 15:35:27 GMT -5
You are right Richard. In fact 400 to 500 might be too far for deer for me when there is wind over 15 mph. If I had really calm conditions and a good rest on my pack, I might try 500 or even a bit further if it were a bull buffalo, elk, or moose. But I need more practice to even know. The farthest I have to shoot right now is a 400 yard shot. I am pretty impressed with how little the 340 grain CE moves at 400 yards in a 10-15 mph trade wind/cross wind. I would need to practice at 500 and beyond to know what it is capable of.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 15:52:30 GMT -5
Cow hunter beat me to it! This is my justification and feel free to disagree If one is to feel up to blasting away at the golden 500 yard shot. Using my .458 rempac with a BC of .43 at 2800fps 10mph wind at 90* 400 yards- drop is calculated at 30.5" and wind drift 13.6" 500 yards- drop 56.2" and wind drift 22.2" If I miscalculated yardage I would flat out miss but miscalculate wind and I blew off the deer's arse. Using the muzzle tac ultra BC of .93 and MV of 2800fps, same 10mph wind at 90* 400 yards drop 25.6" and wind drift 5.8" 500 yards drop 45.4" and wind drift 9.2" Still would miss on a gross miscalculation of yardage but an ethical kill is possible if the wind misjudged. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of this subject, but I hope this site is safe enough that we can all discuss any ideas and builds that we are working on. I will never be an advocate of SML for anyone that doesn't specifically seek it out themselves. I have many friends that hunt and shoot a lot but have no business front stuffing smokeless. 95%+ of hunters fall into that same category.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 17, 2014 18:49:07 GMT -5
IMO, we as hunters are never perfect and therefore the decision to shoot or not to shoot is highly individualized. I would no more tell a hunter that he is unethical for his decisions than I would tell someone that their Religion is wrong...unless it was I know people that take their rifle out a day or so before hunting season and take a couple of shots and say it is good enough. Lots of folks here shoot year round. If the shooter is confident then they should shoot, if they just blast away then that is on their conscience and not mine. Most really long range hunters use a spotter, wind meters, high BC bullets, good scopes and drop charts so that bullet placement and good success on first shot is a good proposition. Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but opinions are just that and we each have our own. edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 22:00:41 GMT -5
All my life I've wanted to shoot at targets farther than most. When I was in the military I was instructed by my drill sergeant to try out for sniper school however I'm color blind and at that time they didn't allow people who were color blind in the school. Since then I've always tried to be realistic about shooting farther ranges knowing there are more to long range shooting than just pulling the trigger.
Here in the past few months after I had another smokeless put together I've really been focused on trying to be realistically accurate out to 600 however I've only made it to 400 because I've been struggling to get the right info in my ballistic app to dial the correct zero for that yardage. Which has me re thinking my goal out to 600. I felt I've always been a good shot however after seeing some of the range reports on here from other members makes me wonder how good I really am.
Guess what I'm getting at is this, as hunters we need to be ethical in the fact that we need to know OUR limits. I know there are people on here that could shoot to 700 yards and still be ethical. People are have a right to express their opinion but not to be upset because we didn't do what they wanted.
I really like the idea of a muzztac and love seeing 400+ range reports gives me info to help me to my goal. This site is awesome and the members are great also. Keep posting and enjoy what we have!
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 17, 2014 22:15:11 GMT -5
Thanks to Deadeye I just saw a guy shoot a balloon with his first shot at 600 yards using a stock 367 Mag pistol. I have that exact pistol, but someone painted it green and I've been known to miss a basketball sized Fish head at 3 feet. I guess your point is that there is quite a disparity in ability from hunter to hunter.
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 17, 2014 22:25:10 GMT -5
Wait have I just been spoofed. Someone else look at Deadeye's video. Is it really possible to hit anything at 600 yards with a pistol?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 22:27:09 GMT -5
Absolutely! I've watched videos of walk backs to 250-300 yards with a stock glock 20. It comes down to some perfect form past 50 yards.
|
|
|
Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 18, 2014 7:08:58 GMT -5
Most really long range hunters use a spotter, wind meters, high BC bullets, good scopes and drop charts so that bullet placement and good success on first shot is a good proposition. When we first fielded the XM2010 my partner and I, using a spotting scope, LRF, Kestrel, Ballistic Computer, and experience were able to clean the field of LaRue targets (11.5"x23.5" vs 19"x40") to 1062m with first round hits after proper zero and truing. One time in Arkansas using a .50BMG I hit an APC at a little over 2700m (it took 3 shots) using the same setup. So, with really good equipment and a lot of time behind the gun it is doable to highly probable. I don't hunt for survival so I can always afford to take a shot I want and I choose not to shoot at game over 400-500m away. There are parts of the world where if you do that and don't recover the animal you pay for it anyway. There are guys who do hunt long range successfully. That is their prerogative and I won't judge anybody until I watch them muck up. At any distance inside of 50ft I feel like I am really good with a pistol. They aren't balloons but I have done walks with S&W M&P Pro9L and Glock 35 to about 275yds against steel silhouettes (19"x40"). I also choose not to start a fight at several hundred meters against LBGs in AirJesus sandals and AKs with a pistol even tho it could be done with a high degree of probability. There are better hammers and techniques for using them. Like I said before, I am all for stretching these SMLs to the limit, posting the targets, and sharing the knowledge.
|
|
|
Post by linebaugh on Apr 18, 2014 7:20:33 GMT -5
One thing that I think about when I read any of the long range "hunting" posts is bullet performance. Even if you can hit an animal at 500 yards does your bullet have enough velocity to function beyond FMJ mode? I would bet that many of the 500 yard shooters would be very surprised to see what the velocity is at that range.
I have the luxury of shooting to about 700 yards out my back door and i have several guns set up with complete drop data to 7-1100 yards. I love shooting the long range stuff but would be very hard pressed to shoot much beyond 500 with my cf guns while hunting. I know the muzzys we play with can pull it off but it becomes increasingly difficult when velocity and BC become limited.
Somebody mentioned a BC of .43 and i believe .9 earlier. What bullets are you referring to? I would like to see a bullet with a .9 G1 BC. I shoot a 190gr matrix bullet in .284 and the BC is about .7 and it looks like a little missle, i can't imagine a .9... that would be awesome!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 8:09:33 GMT -5
Linebaugh, .416 375 Cutting Edge bullet on the far right has a BC of .820 .416 450 Rocky Mountain Hunter second from the right has a BC of .923...That one really kicks as 2700-2800 fps.
|
|
|
Post by Alabama on Apr 18, 2014 8:10:16 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 8:22:14 GMT -5
Luke's 310 has a real world g1 of .43 or better, cutting edge bullets in .375 can reach .9 or higher, Rocky Mountain goes .926, sierra matchking .83. When you go to the big boys the bc is incredible compared to what the .458's can be without being 550grs plus. If you want extreme .458 go with the Lehigh
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 18, 2014 9:56:27 GMT -5
Earnhardt: Nice photo of some very high-tech bullets. myers129: I didn't know the Lehigh brass bullets existed. Pretty neat design from the same guys who make the vent liner. My favorite bullet now is the 340 grain CE hollow point -- which I anneal. It has a hollowed out base such that it has the very same shape as the 375 grain, and almost as good a BC. CE should make a .458 solid copper bullet with a hollowed out base to allow for a lot of rifling contact. I thought there were other bullet makers, mentioned by members from time to time, testing high BC .458 bullets. For Christmas we should wish for a .600 BC .458 bullet that has weight under 325 or 350 grains.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 18, 2014 10:18:37 GMT -5
IMO, the problem with a hollow base is the reduced BC, it is the same as using a less dense material.
If I were to take a 500 grain bullet design and hollow out the base so that it only weighs 250 grains then the BC will be cut approximately in half too. Probably a bit more. Look at a 250 vs 300 grain XTP. Their nose is nearly identical and the 250 is 250/300 of the BC ( 0.146 vs 0.180 )
edge.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Apr 18, 2014 14:54:13 GMT -5
this is a give & take thing/we are about to come to a full circle again regarding bullet weights(history) designed for long range//enjoy & especially notice the mirage & the bullet strikes(dust direction) wind changing-this effects these lightweight's & low bc's @ short range also. sure there is likely to be much more probability of error @ long range
something to chew on,,,many if you miss a short shot some will say a bad shot,same many @ a miss longer ranges will say ethic's
I asked this question/survey a few yrs ago here on the board-how much driftage in a 10 mph wind @ 90 degrees @ 200 yds with a relative low smk bc bullet(excluding parkers) at our speeds & how many actually remember to hold off, a 10 mph cross wind is very common -answer-out of the kill zone!
we always strive to get better short or long.
again something to chew on,happy easter! btw -cowhunter -great thread! imo
|
|
|
Post by kash913 on Apr 18, 2014 20:12:45 GMT -5
CE 375 left lehigh 416 416 gr BC .932
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 20:22:57 GMT -5
Kash913, does Tom suggest a load for that 416gr bullet? That ones a beast
|
|
|
Post by cowhunter on Apr 18, 2014 21:12:18 GMT -5
Edge: They must hollow out the base for some other ballistic reason. Off the subject a bit, I think the only realistic way to handle heavy bullets is the big muzzle brake. I'm like Drop (?) in that I have always hated muzzle brakes, but after I got the one Tom put on my .416 I love how they handle recoil that comes with heavy bullets.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 21:34:25 GMT -5
Maybe if Luke checks this thread out he can enlighten us on how the 90* rear port of the muscle brake effects the amount of noise it hammers the shooter with. Maybe it isn't any better for noise just concussion.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 19, 2014 7:22:58 GMT -5
Edge: They must hollow out the base for some other ballistic reason. Probably to maintain the shank dimension but it reduces recoil too. The hole in the base may/probably does have some effect on base drag either good or bad but since nose drag is the largest component especially in a boat tail design it probably is not too much. edge.
|
|
|
Post by moto357 on Apr 19, 2014 8:49:30 GMT -5
I think a hollow base helps with bullet stabilization as well
|
|