SML legality in MI?

[ateam]

I am sure this has been covered here before but, is SML legal in Michigan?  Cal restrictions?

I just want to make sure I can use what I build before I pour money into a new .45 barrel.

Here is the MIDNR wording from their site.

"During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a crossbow (except in the Upper Peninsula) or a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute. Only certified hunters with a disability may use a crossbow or a modified bow during the muzzleloading season in the Upper Peninsula."

Sounds like only pistols are restricted to black powder and subs?

I also hunt deer in manitoba, but their wording is much more clear.

[hydrodog]

Technically SML is not allowed during any muzzleloading season unless loaded with black powder or equivalent.In rifle zones they are allowed during firearm deer seasons when used with smokeless powder.I have never heard of a DNR officer requiring a hunter to discharge his firearm to observe if the muzzle emits smoke or not.I am not sure if anybody has used BH209 as a sub load for smoke effect, might want to ask that question on here.With shotguns shooting over 200 yds. accurately it seems that they would revise the muzzleloading rules.Something to keep in mind is to not broadcast anything about your hunting technique to anybody at anytime. Keep it personal.

[gar]

Correct, smokeless not legal in muzzle loader season. Blackhorn works fine in my conversion,110 grains weighed and 275 be with lubed wool wad.

[tmitch4570]

On page 20 of the 2013 Michigan Hunting and Trapping Digest: "A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute". Pretty clear. SML might be legal in the rifle zones during the regular firearms season because it does not specify what propelant must be used, only "muzzleloading firearms, including black powder handguns." At one time .44 was the minimum caliber but it isn't specified any longer.

[ateam]

interesting, thanks for all the input guys.

[rangeball]

I know a guy in MI who spoke with a CPO who told him if it loads from the muzzle he considers it legal.

[encore50a]

Jan 27, 2014 10:03:35 GMT -5 rangeball said:

I know a guy in MI who spoke with a CPO who told him if it loads from the muzzle he considers it legal.

I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I won't say that a DNR officer may not just go on about his business but, the MI DNR officers that I know, know the difference between a rifle designed specifically to shoot BP or substitutes and rifles that will shoot smokeless.  Using smokeless during the designated muzzleloader seasons in MI, could cost you your rifle.  Worse yet, if you harvested a deer using smokeless during the designated muzzleloader season, they could consider it an illegal kill, thus costing you not only your rifle and fines, it could also cost you your hunting license for three (3) years.

BH209 is considered a legal substitute in MI during the regular firearm season or the designated muzzleloader seasons.

[jeff]

Jan 26, 2014 12:57:44 GMT -5 gar said:

Correct, smokeless not legal in muzzle loader season. Blackhorn works fine in my conversion,110 grains weighed and 275 be with lubed wool wad.

110 grains [volume] weighed is 78 grains of bl/horn.

Don't need to see any more exploded guns! jeff~

[sparkman]

Jan 27, 2014 10:03:35 GMT -5 rangeball said:

I know a guy in MI who spoke with a CPO who told him if it loads from the muzzle he considers it legal.

I personally spoke with a DNR Officer, who told me just the OPPOSITE,..NOT legal and he WOULD check if he suspected use of smokeless.

[gar]

Stand corrected, 110 gr. weighed is 157.1 gr. by volume.

[hydrodog]

Here is why it is not allowed. Simple Ignorance. This bill was shot down,no pun intended.
BILL ANALYSIS

BILL NUMBER: HOUSE BILL 4554, AS INTRODUCED

TOPIC: Muzzleloading deer season; allow smokeless powder

SPONSOR: Representative Calley

CO-SPONSORS: Representatives Stakoe, Hildenbrand, Agema, Opsommer, Hammon and Jones

COMMITTEE: Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources

Analysis Done: April 13, 2007

POSITION

The Department opposes the bill.

PROBLEM/BACKGROUND

The Wildlife Conservation Order which regulates hunting, states, “A person hunting deer with a muzzle-loading firearm during the muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms only season shall only possess or carry afield, or take a deer with a muzzle-loading rifle, muzzle-loading shotgun, or black-powder pistol, loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute.” Current regulations allow for use of a muzzle-loading rifle or a black powder handgun during all firearm deer seasons in the southern Michigan “shotgun” zone.

DESCRIPTION OF BILL

House Bill 4554 would allow for use of smokeless powder in muzzleloading deer hunting seasons. The change impacts deer hunting during the December muzzle-loading-only season and all southern Michigan firearm deer hunting. Currently, Michigan offers a firearm deer hunting season in December which is restricted to hunters using muzzle-loading rifles, muzzle-loading shotguns, or black powder handguns loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute. “Muzzle-loading” implies that gun is loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel. Smokeless powder burns faster and can cause serious injury if used in conventional muzzleloaders. Hunter education specifically teaches students not to use smokeless powder in muzzleloading firearms.

SUMMARY OF ARGUMENTS

Pro

Savage Arms now markets a muzzleloader which can use smokeless powder.

Con

This legislation overrides the Commission’s authority to regulate the taking of game.

Very few muzzleloaders are designed to accommodate smokeless powders and

use of smokeless powder in a conventional muzzleloader can cause a barrel to explode and may cause serious injury.

FISCAL/ECONOMIC IMPACT

Are there revenue or budgetary implications in the bill to the --

(a) Department

Budgetary:

None

Revenue:

None

Comments:

None

(b) State

Budgetary:

None

Revenue:

None

Comments:

None

(c) Local Government

Comments:

None

OTHER STATE DEPARTMENTS

None

ANY OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION

None





ADMINISTRATIVE RULES IMPACT

None











_______________________________

Rebecca A. Humphries

Director







_______________________________

Date



LED

[jeff]

Jan 27, 2014 14:04:49 GMT -5 gar said:

Stand corrected, 110 gr. weighed is 157.1 gr. by volume.

Your very correct, I was referring to 110 gr volume weighed is 78 gr, most haven't a clue to what we are talking about weighing bl/horn powder just a friendly reminder to the less advanced shooters. jeff~

[Page Three]

I was at the Hunting Expo on Friday in Grand Rapids and spoke to 2 COs. Initially when questioned whether smokeless was legal, they both responded by saying "As long as it loads from the muzzle and is a single shot, it doesn't matter what powder is used". Then one of the officers asked for my information so he could check it out and get back to me. This was his email response:

Chris,

From the research I did, it’s my opinion that you cannot use the smokeless powder muzzleloader during the muzzleloading season or during the firearm season in the “shotgun zone”. You could use it in the “rifle zone”. The law, which is below, states the gun must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. I’m by far not an expert on gun powder, but I don’t think smokeless powder fits into either category. Hope this helps and let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

Cary Foster
Conservation Officer—Michigan DNR
Plainwell Operations Service Center
Email: [e-mail]

3.100 Take of deer; prohibited firearms, legal weapons, “bait” and “baiting” defined, conditions for baiting established in certain area(s); unlawful acts.

Sec. 3.100 (1) “Take” means the same as defined in section 40104, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.40104.

(f) Take a deer during any firearm deer season in the “shotgun, handgun, black-powder firearms only area,” with a firearm other than a shotgun with a smooth or rifled barrel, a .35 caliber or larger pistol capable of holding no more than nine shells at one time in the barrel and magazine combined and loaded with straight-walled cartridges, or a muzzle-loading rifle or black-powder pistol loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute.

3.101 Deer hunting open seasons; type of deer that may be taken; carrying of firearms; season limit.

Sec. 3.101. (1) The open firearm deer season shall be from November 15 to November 30.

(2) The open muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms deer season in zone 1 shall be a total of 10 days from the first Friday in December to nine days thereafter. The open muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms deer season in zone 2 shall be a total of 10 days from the second Friday in December to nine days thereafter. The open muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms deer season in zone 3 shall be a total of 17 days from the first Friday in December to 16 days thereafter.

(3) Subject to section 43510(2) and (3), 1994 PA 451, as amended, MCL 324.43510, a person hunting deer with a muzzleloading firearm during the muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms season shall only possess or carry afield, or take a deer with a muzzle-loading rifle, muzzle-loading shotgun, or black-powder pistol, loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute, or a crossbow.

Here is my response to him:
Mr. Foster,

Let me start off by saying "Thank You" for getting back to me on this subject. I know other people who read the regulations just like you. I read them a little differently. This is the reason why I asked for the DNR to put a definitive statement in the regulation handbook. Below is a copy from the Colorado DOW:
“Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty (.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.”

a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by muzzle-loading license holders.
b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the following additional restrictions apply:
1.Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited.
2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches are not sabots.
3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms, which can be loaded from the breech, are prohibited.
4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or “iron” sights is prohibited.
5. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.


A couple of points I would make regarding the legality of smokeless powder are:
1) Smokeless powder was the first substitute for black powder in rifles starting over 200 years ago
2)Pyrodex, Triple 7, Blackhorn 209 are all classified by the DOT as smokeless powder, whereas true organic black powder is classified as an explosive.
3)Smokeless powder is already being used throughout the state in the firearm deer season via rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
4) The lack of a definitive statement, like point 1 in the Colorado regulations, leaves this up to the users discretion.

Here are the regulations from Illinois for additional confusion.

Single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .45 caliber shooting a single projectile through a barrel of at least sixteen inches in length. A muzzleloading firearm is defined as a firearm that is incapable of being loaded from the breech end. Only black powder or a “black powder substitute” such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders are an approved black powder substitute only in muzzleloading firearms that are specifically designed for their use. Percussion caps (shotgun primers are legal), wheel-lock, matchlock or flint type ignition only may be used, except the Connecticut Valley Arms electronic ignition shall be legal to use.

Thanks again,

Chris Marfia


Clear As Mud!!!!