Smokeless Muzzleloading Inc.

[rambler]

Has anyone had a smokeless MZ made or converted by Smokeless Muzzleloading Inc. and if so what was the build and how did it turn out?

Thank you

[rangeball]

They do great work. They installed a .50 douglas premium with a 1:22 twist (not there standard stock, had to wait for them to do a barrel order) on my H&R USH 12g and it works and shoots perfectly.

Good guys.

[Dave W]

What are you looking to convert?

[rambler]

hello,




thank you for you input on my thread about SMI

I have sent them my H&R 45/70 action and have requested that they fit it with a 45 cal. 30" target barrel from douglas. they didn't seem too wild about that and were definitely against any notion of using sabotless bullets in it.

they seemed ok with doing the convert tho so we'll see. guess I was looking for opinions after the fact.

I just liked their breech plug system over the other rempac converts I've seen and read about. I'm taking anything away from them but they all want to use short 25" barrels with a savage breech plug that uses that vent liner you have to periodically replace

any thoughts on that?

[Deleted]

The smi breechplug that I once owned had a ventliner in it.It was a Douglas barrel 25" with the heavy contour...At 25" it was very front heavy even with a wood stock....It did shoot good....

[rambler]

I wonder if they use vent liners now. What is your opinion on using sabotless bullets? I want to send Tom at swinglock a drop to get a full formed die made up.

my goal is to get consistent accuracy out to 400 hundreds. don't expect to drive tacs just hit a 6 inch circle. the size of the kill zone on a big deer or elk

[Deleted]

You can buy a bushing plug now from Luke...outlast ventliners many times over...with the never replace bushing in the works.....

[rambler]

would the threads fit the SMI conversion I'm getting?? I believe they said something about #18 threads on the bushing??

[Dave W]

Send Fishhawk a SMI plug and he will do the bushing conversion.

[rambler]

Hopefully SMI will have a good breech plug system and i'll be set. Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. it's greatly appreciated.

[rangeball]

In the past SMI offered a standard drilled plug, one drilled and tapped for a savage or their proprietary vent, or a carbide bushing. I would ask them what is available and if they are still offering a bushing plug get it or just get the cheapest option and have Fishawk convert it with a bushing as Dave suggested. With your external ballistic goals you'll likely be pushing heavier bullets pretty fast and vent wear will be a concern that needs managed. The bushing is the best way to deal with this in my opinion.

[rossman40]

The replaceable vent, whether it be a screw or a bushing, is almost a must in SMLing.

Using the Savage breechplug makes things easier, it's a off-the-shelf part. So if it has to be replaced down the road, no problem.

[sw]

Some answers: I had the original SMI breechplug with no ventliner. I would get either ventliner or bushing depending on amt of shooting. If you want a 45, then the answer is easy for me: get one of the 3 H&R 45-70 rifles and have it Slufoot mod'd . If you don't want a 45, ask yourself "Why do I not want a 45?". The entire cost of the H&R mod'd will only come to near the cost of the SMI barrel alone. The SMI barrel/workmanship is excellent!
There is the HandiRifle(20" barrel), regular rifle(22 or 24" barrel) and the Buffalo version 32" barrel which could be shortened 1 1/2-2" or whatever, and still have 30" or less, if desired, and have the makings of a FF die.

[rambler]

I have already sent the recv'r and forend to SMI I called them today and talked about the build some more. I spoke with Don and he said his brother has more than 5000 shots thru the bushing and vent liner they use. They do use a vent liner of some kind these days. I'm having a spare one shipped with the finished gun. I've never used smokeless so I'm pretty much clueless.

I'm getting a Douglas 29.5 inch barrel in 45/70 (.458) with 1:22 twist. They are also going to modify the forend to the new barrel and tweak the trigger to 3.5lbs. I figure with that long of barrel there would be plenty to spare if I wanted to get a FF die from Tom at swinglock. That's another 200 bucks and a good press is yet another 150 bucks for a RCBS rock chucker.

then we have bullets and powder to get. course once a guy gets all that your pretty much set for a good while. I'm looking forward to all this.

any suggestions on bullet and load based on the above specs?

thanks for everyone's responses!!

Read more: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/conversation/117920#ixzz2qbsEo5vS

[sw]

I do think the Douglas barrel will have better quality than the stock H&R. You won't be disappointed. Saboted, you'll easily be able to shoot 200 SSTs and 195 B @ 3000'/sec with ease. Sabotless, seems like the landrider best choices are 275,300,327 MHs and Luke's 310 458 /FF. I have a Douglas barreled 6PPC, 22-250 AK IMP, and the 50 cal SMI barrel. They are exceptional barrels, IMO.

[rambler]

What type and how much smokeless powder do you think would be a good match for the gun I'm having made

thanks

[rangeball]

Since you're having a FF die made and want consistent 400 yd accuracy I think you're looking at the 310gr .458 APB from Luke. Expensive but worth it if you want to play the long distance game.

For powders I would want H4198, H322 and SR4759 on hand. These should cover your single or duplex needs. Load will likely be around 70grs of powder which should get you between 26-700 fps with a .4 bc for the bullet.

[Savage Shooter]

Jan 17, 2014 9:41:50 GMT -5 rangeball said:

Since you're having a FF die made and want consistent 400 yd accuracy I think you're looking at the 310gr .458 APB from Luke. Expensive but worth it if you want to play the long distance game.

For powders I would want H4198, H322 and SR4759 on hand. These should cover your single or duplex needs. Load will likely be around 70grs of powder which should get you between 26-700 fps with a .4 bc for the bullet.

AND 5744

[rambler]

what about IMR4198??

[rangeball]

Yes, if I recall correctly almost directly interchangeable with H4198 but check with Savage Shooter and others to be sure. I've never used it.

[sw]

Jan 17, 2014 15:04:42 GMT -5 rangeball said:

Yes, if I recall correctly almost directly interchangeable with H4198 but check with Savage Shooter and others to be sure. I've never used it.

I usually had to use 0.5-1g more of the IMR 4198 but that could have been that particular can.

[sw]

I think the 4.5" longer barrel and heavier than normal bullet than normally used by many of us in a 45 should be a good reason to consider slightly slower powders than are normally used.

[rambler]

The barrel that SMI is starting out with will be a 29.5" blank from Douglas. Then they said that it will cut and crowned to about 29" or so. After that I will no doubt have my local gunsmith take another 1.5" to 2" off so I can a FF die made.

That will bring it down to 27"...so not too much longer than the 25" barrels that I see a lot of the guys using here with the same 1:22 twist rate.

is using a shorter barrel better in some way, less expensive and/or lighter in weight?

[superkirby]

I think it's more a convenience thing. It seems like the majority shoot 24-25" barrels in the Savage/Remington conversions. It seems to be the best balance of length to provide good velocity without being so long it's unwieldy. From there it's more of a personal preference.
I'm waiting on a price from Ron to order an Encore barrel. Some of the places I hunt are pretty thick and nowhere offers a real long shot. Add to that I'm required to use open sights for now and for me a short barrel makes more sense. I'm still undecided on length, something between 20 and 22". It's all personal preference. Get what you think you'll like. If it's not what you want you can build the next one differently... because there will be a next one.

[rambler]

That is very true. The planning and experimenting seems to be as much fun or more than the hunting.

Where I hunt here in Arkansas most guys typically hunt from stationary stands, leaner stands, or climbing stands.

I have a lot of shots in the 200+ range all the time. I also am just plain curious to see what kind of range and ballistics I can get.

[dannoboone]

Jan 18, 2014 8:44:25 GMT -5 sw said:

I think the 4.5" longer barrel and heavier than normal bullet than normally used by many of us in a 45 should be a good reason to consider slightly slower powders than are normally used.

Rambler, your barrel will have less diameter than the Rem conversions. So,
you should use caution when coming up with loads you see here that have
been used in the Rem and Savage conversions.

That being said, and as Steve has noted, slower powders in longer barrels
(even if yours is cut down to 27") can achieve great results with less
initial pressure. However, you will probably also have to duplex these
loads with a primer powder. For my 28" barrel, a duplex of Green Dot and
IMR 3031 looks very promising...will know for sure later this winter or
early spring when temps don't make it too miserable for the ol' bones.

[rambler]

do recommend sabot or sabotless with this break open type of ML??

[dannoboone]

Jan 18, 2014 13:23:50 GMT -5 rambler said:

do recommend sabot or sabotless with this break open type of ML??

Good question to ask on the open "Savage/Smokeless Muzzle Loading" board,
along with questions pertaining to recommended pressures for the break
actions. Start a thread there and you should get plenty of helpful
answers.

[sw]

Jan 18, 2014 13:23:50 GMT -5 rambler said:

do recommend sabot or sabotless with this break open type of ML??

I plan to try 250SWs with moderate loads. Seriously doubt any problem with full loads. The safety margin for doing stuff like double loads is my concern. Been there done that: kind of like a gear up landing-very few pilots ever have 2 of those(I've not had one :-) ). Or like landing at Taney County instead of Branson Intx. Those pilots, if reinstated , will likely never do that again. Back to loads: very hard to beat a 195B at 3000+'/sec or the 300+ yd capability of a 200SST going fast. The 275MH with appropriate load may well be a great sabotless bet.

[rambler]

I don't understand how anyone could double load a ML, smokeless or otherwise. Seen a guy do it at deer camp about 15 years ago with a Knight. Come to find out he had loaded when he left home, then loaded it again when he got out in the woods. 110 gr of Pyrodex. It went off ok and didn't do any damage but like you said, he probably won't do that again.

Anytime using my old ML I had a doubt in my mind i unloaded the gun..wasteful or not, better to be alive and one piece than the alternative.

I posted a thread a few minutes ago inquiring on which is better, if one actually is better...sabot or sabotless.

I've been msg'ing with Savage Hunter and others and am going to use sabots in my new build to start off with using some of the suggested bullets and loads. He's got load data that's driving tacs at 300. Me likey that long time LOL. My barrel will be around 29 inches when i get it back. I am having some of it cut off and re-crowned. At least 1.5 inches maybe more. Everyone says 25" inches is plenty however when I look at the swinglocks, the Badbulls, and others they all shoot sabotless and have longer barrels, typically in the 26 to 28 inch range. Again i'm using a douglas barrel which swinglock also uses so i'm confused. I don't want to cut the barrel too short and regret it down the road.