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Post by sw on Dec 17, 2012 8:19:05 GMT -5
My heart just breaks over the families' loss in the recent school killings. The Prince of this world, Satan, did this, not God. Please never think the God did this "for His glory". God isn't like this: Satan caused this. The thought that God is in control, and controls all events, is just wrong . Though God is all powerful, knowing, etc, but He doesn't control all events. This type of thinking (that He controls everything) fueled the Hatfield/McCoy feud. This wasn't God's doing, it was Satan's.
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Post by ET on Dec 17, 2012 10:02:24 GMT -5
SW
I’m not looking to start any real debate here and agree with the majority of what you stated. Just one part of your statement is confusing to me.
My belief is God is in control of all things or Satan would have totally free reign over all. He does not have free reign.
God provides for those that seek him and invite Him into their lives. If you ask God to Butt Out He will honor that request and allow you to go in your own direction. Now consider that you have made known to God you want Him out of the picture you are now exposed to Satan who will not honor anything as his goal is only your demise to join him in condemnation and suffering.
The choice is ours to make so that any real blame or consequences for our decision really belongs to us alone.
I know many of us seek answers and want to place blame for this tragedy that has happened. Now how many will accept that a large portion of the blame from my standpoint belongs to those that supported removing God from Schools that opened the door for Satan to enter.
God is not obligated to continue His protection when asked to leave.
Ed
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Post by muzzleman 54 on Dec 17, 2012 17:40:57 GMT -5
cant watch the news anymore without coming to tears. WHY ?
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Dec 17, 2012 19:33:36 GMT -5
Lots of great Christian folks here on the board. It's the interpretation of what is...and what isn't...that confuses me and maybe others.
Is Satan a separate entity? Does God allow Satan to do things so that we know what it means to suffer? Does God and Satan duel it out in heaven and hell?
Being a pessimist at heart, I find it hard to find religion, or the lack of it, to blame. If I see bad things happening, I should correct it if possible. Bang, shoot the bad guy.
Bad situation...terrible
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Post by sw on Dec 17, 2012 20:05:24 GMT -5
SW I’m not looking to start any real debate here and agree with the majority of what you stated. Just one part of your statement is confusing to me. My belief is God is in control of all things or Satan would have totally free reign over all. He does not have free reign. Ed, I set this up intentionally to promote debate.  . I believe that God intentionally limits His control in areas: He will never break His word so this is a self-imposed limitation , He allows man the free choice to respond to Jesus and His free gift - He doesn't desire that anyone be lost and doesn't control those who don't accept the gift of forgiveness and righteousness, actually holiness. "In control", to me, means directing what happens as the McCoy father felt God caused the death of his son since "God was in control" or at least he thought God controlled what happened -his son or whomever(s) of his died. Now, I do not know or presume to know why God intervenes or doesn't , as in this case. I do know, He didn't "control" this happening. |
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Post by ET on Dec 17, 2012 21:50:56 GMT -5
SW
Thanks for the clarification of how “In Control” is being interpreted here.
I fully agree that God was not involved in any way of this tragedy because of His love expressed for children seen in The New Testament. He also gave a warning to anyone that would harm such children. The culprit responsible will not go unpunished even though he avoided earthly repercussions by taking his life.
Wilmsmeyer
Satan is an Arch Angel created by God who turned against (rejected) God as did other angels that we now call demons. God created mankind and also part of mankind has turned away from God. I will admit that I do not understand the significance behind God’s plan nor have been provided with any such information revealed for an explanation.
Satan does not reside in Heaven but on Earth as he and his followers were cast out of Heaven. Mankind is starting out on Earth and those that chose to accept Christ and place their faith in God will eventually reside in Heaven.
Basically mankind causes mankind to suffer from Satan’s influence. As of yet I have not read where Satan can directly extinguish a life but can influence that life or another to take it.
Ed
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Post by sw on Dec 17, 2012 23:12:57 GMT -5
Ed,
I believe Satan has to work thru a willing, living being. No power except the power of persuasion. He is very smart: only God's word is smarter(what Jesus used against him) c
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Post by ET on Dec 18, 2012 6:39:19 GMT -5
Ed, I believe Satan has to work thru a willing, living being. No power except the power of persuasion. He is very smart: only God's word is smarter(what Jesus used against him) c SW I have often wondered if “willing” played a role here. Satan is the prince of deception and the only protection is God and His Word because herein lies the truth to reveal Satan’s deception. Let’s look at one example I would like to present. Let’s look at a person who doesn’t believe in God or Satan because he is enjoying a life of luxury and no hardships or suffering. He feels all good things come from the good decisions he makes. This person will consider himself a smart person controlling their own destiny and credits himself for avoiding suffering. Now should this individual acknowledge God’s existence they may feel their good deeds will get them a pass into Heaven if Heaven exists because they feel they deserve it. Hold on a minute, since when has the creation been given authority over the Creator for judgment??? According to God’s Word this is farthest from the real truth and is nothing more than a deception. No need to guess the origin of this deception and Satan may very well let this individual live out his physical life in a form of comfort because he knows this person’s soul in the end will join him in condemnation. If “willing” indicates/represents voluntary-choice then I fully agree with what you have said. Ed |
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Post by sw on Dec 18, 2012 7:57:01 GMT -5
Ed, you very eloquently worded exactly my thoughts but what I was unable to adequately express. I think Satan works exactly this way with all who are amenable to this deception and in whatever way he devises to work in others' lives to bring about his distruction.
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 19, 2012 22:02:38 GMT -5
The first thing you have to nail down before you can start talking about what God allows is that the whole planet is FALLEN because of Adam and Eve's sin. That one word clears God of all issues except for those people who have excepted his son Jesus's work on the cross that gives all who will accept it salvation form their FALLEN state and sets them on the God given path He originally wanted for everyone.
I believe demons can in-dwell people who are not saved that allow themselves to be opened up to such forces. This can be through hard drugs or maybe even video games if the mind is in the right state or condition. Look at the face of the guy who did the shooting. He has a look of something more evil then just a mental disorder.
A elementary school..........some would say everyone of those children are in Heaven beside the feet of Jesus right now. Everyone I know believes they were below the age of consent and will not be judged for their sin. Now some will say otherwise unless their parents were saved. In regards to that one I am not 100% sure but I currently feel all the kids are in a much better place.
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Post by sw on Dec 20, 2012 21:01:37 GMT -5
The first thing you have to nail down before you can start talking about what God allows is that the whole planet is FALLEN because of Adam and Eve's sin. That one word clears God of all issues except for those people who have excepted his son Jesus's work on the cross that gives all who will accept it salvation form their FALLEN state and sets them on the God given path He originally wanted for everyone. . I agree. 1 John 4:17, Romans 8:1(note that the KJV has added to the last part of this verse what was not in the original). Also agree that the parent's relationship with God doesn't affect the state of their deceased, young children. |
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Post by dougedwards on Dec 22, 2012 18:30:01 GMT -5
It is my belief that Smokepole is on the right track when he points out that this world and all of nature is under a curse based on the fact that sin reigns in the hearts of all men. Keep in mind that there is none good, no not one. There is none that does good. There is no one that seeks after God.
Nonetheless, we live and breath and have all of our being based on the grace of God and nothing else. Without this grace there would be no life here on earth or anywhere else. There is a good example of this when the scripture says that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart. Did God actually insert hatred into the heart of the Pharaoh? Absolutely not but as wicked as this Pharaoh was, he was not as wicked as he could be because of God's grace which tempered the evil that lived within his heart. All God had to do to harden Pharaoh's heart or your heart or my heart would be to withdraw a measure of grace.
Our country has been blessed by God and even though we as a country have been somewhat remiss in honoring Him it is evident that God has protected us. However, it is also apparent that in recent years there has been a strong movement to disregard God as if He does not even exist. We take the liberty to discard unborn fetuses as if they were not human life granted by God and rebuke anyone who mentions God's name in our public schools and now our President has announced that this is NOT a Christian nation!
Also keep in mind that 40,000 children around the world died today of starvation as they did yesterday and the day before. Much of the rest of this world understands that they only exist by the grace of God but we question God when a maniac is "allowed" to reek havoc on our innocent children.
When you plant a corn seed you receive corn as a crop. When you plant disregard and hostility toward God you receive less of His grace. I know that this isn't much consolation for those parents that lost their children in this recent horrific event but God knows each of those children by name and bids them to come unto Him because as such is the Kingdom of God.
GOD IS IN CONTROL! But when we reject Him it isn't His nature to intrude into our lives. He withdraws and we feel the effects of it. We could get rid of every gun in the country but we would still be left with wicked hearts who will find a way to hate and destroy.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
These are the words of Jesus describing the end of times. Because we reject God there will be devastation throughout the planet and unless Jesus would intervene there would be NO flesh left alive. But for the sake of those who endure unto the end......those days will be shortened and grace will reign upon the earth forevermore.
Doug
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Post by ET on Dec 24, 2012 7:34:20 GMT -5
Smokepole50
That statement strikes so true and provokes some interesting thoughts.
We are where we are because of one disobedient act by Adam and Eve.
Satan proclaimed that by ingesting the fruit of knowledge we could be like God.
We gained knowledge alright. Knowledge to either help or destroy ourselves but never gained God’s Wisdom to always properly use this knowledge. The later appears to overshadow the previous because we can’t always use that knowledge now inherited in a good productive way. The later will also nullify anything good we have tried to do. Pushing a few buttons with a code today and almost all of mankind could be wiped from the face of the earth.
God originally planned to guide mankind in a good direction providing everything we needed. Now we continuously struggle to handle this so called acquired God like knowledge that Satan tempted mankind with.
But a loving and compassionate God has not abandoned us but provided a way to recover from this disobedient act of long ago that haunts us today. This event occurred almost 2000yrs ago that even Satan could not alter or stop happening. Like many other believers I seek the day that God will take His rightful place and restore peaceful order that the world today lacks. Everyone will one day bow and their voice will proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord over all. I patiently await that day whether in my physical lifetime or not.
Every year around this time we celebrate Christmas and open our hearts with gifts to others whether it is to fulfill a need or bring some joy to someone else. When we receive such a gift we are always appreciative/thankful to the giver. Here I can only ask others to join me in remembering the greatest gift of all that provides salvation for mankind.
The Bible does not direct us to celebrate Christ’s Birth but how else can one acknowledge and show gratitude to God for what He did for us and for fulfilling His promise of sending The Messiah providing Salvation?
Ed
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Post by ET on Dec 24, 2012 7:50:34 GMT -5
Just an added note to my response that appears to move this topics direction in another direction. Yes we should recognize that Satan’s evil is very real and powerful in relationship to mankind. But we also need to note that Satan is not all powerful and his power is limited. In reality God is in Control as Dougedwards stated.
Ed
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Post by petev on Jan 18, 2013 14:49:26 GMT -5
A good discussion here with sw and ET. We just need to have the mustard seed of faith. I kind of wish God had sent Satan packing, when he rebelled, but it is part of the mystery.
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. I believe that God intentionally limits His control in areas: He will never break His word so this is a self-imposed limitation , He allows man the free choice to respond to Jesus and His free gift - He doesn't desire that anyone be lost and doesn't control those who don't accept the gift of forgiveness and righteousness, actually holiness. "In control", to me, means directing what happens as the McCoy father felt God caused the death of his son since "God was in control" or at least he thought God controlled what happened -his son or whomever(s) of his died. 
