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Post by edwardamason on Feb 7, 2012 17:38:42 GMT -5
Curious here, if a hunter has a short barreled .30-06 carbine that shoots 6" groups at 300 yards with a 1.75-6X scope, would you tell him not to take the shot at 300 yards? I would say no he probably does not have any business taking that shot for the following reasons. I am not being snarky here I promise. Just offering a educated and experienced comment. The cartridge here nor the scope should be a issue. Its the accuracy of the rifle in your senario that is really the question. Your point is that the rifle in question only shoots 2 min MOA is the real issue. It does not take a 22x scope to make a shot on a deer size animal at 300-500 yards. 4x to 6x in most cases is ideal if you have quality glass and proper mounting. It just takes a shooter behind the rifle that has the experience and the confidence in his equipment to make the shot. If the shooter behind the glass does not have the experience no power glass in the world is going to help him. I don't even own a CF anymore choosing to shoot ML's for all my hunting purposes. But when I did My favorite CF rifle of all time was the 30-06 with 22 inch barrel. It took scores of deer, antelope and even a black buck.. I never touched the power ring on the scope in the field leaving it on 4x and it served me well. The black buck picture below was taken in 2000 on the YO ranch in South Texas. Shot was 318 yards.. 30-06 150 gr Ballistic Tip. Remington 700 BDL, 22 inch Hart Barrel, Jewell Trigger and 3 point Eric Ching sling. It sported a 2.5x10x42mm Kahles Scope. |
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tslc
Forkhorn
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Post by tslc on Feb 7, 2012 17:56:40 GMT -5
I believe .420 is a theoretical Ingalls table number taken from the shape of the projectile and not a real life number as seen on another web page.
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Post by edwardamason on Feb 7, 2012 18:46:56 GMT -5
I know it involves at lot of time and money to test these guns. But by the group sizes you have posted. Especially for only 3 shot groups. Tells me your gun is not up to the level that is required of a accurate rifle and load to succesfully harvest deer or any other big game animals beyond 400yrds. on a good day. Big game Guns/MLs do not need to shoot groups. PERIOD. People get way too hung up on groups and then they want to argue what is better.... a 3 shot group or a 5 shot group. Those discussions are great fodder for camp-fires and make great debates on Internet forums but it really don't mean jack in the field. I realise that many of you measure the accuracy of a ML or centerfire rifle based on the group size. Group sizes mean a lot when it comes to bench rest shooting matches or other spirited marksmanship GAMES but really what does it tell you about what your rifle is going to do cold bore? NOT A HECK OF A WHOLE LOT. Don't know about the rest of you but I have never shot groups on any game animal. Not ONCE and I have been doing this for 30+ years. What I have had to do is shoot cold bore single shots on game animals with the occasional secondary shot due to a mis or a flubbed shot. I suspect the great majority of you fall into that same category unless you are tying game animals to trees. What a big game rifle or ML has to do is deliver cold bore shot on demand to the CENTER of a target. The size of the game animal or target dictates how much room you have for error. I once spent 2 months shooting a 5 shot group to test out my theory. Every morning I would get up early and head to the range looking for the perfect temperature and zero wind. I set the target up at 300 yards. Gun was a Rem 700 BDL in 300 Win Mag. Once the conditions were right I would fire the shot. Over the 2 month period of shooting this 5 shot group It came in at a remarkable 2inch group. Normally this gun would group 1.5 groups at 100 yards off the bench on its best day usually with one shot being noticeably outside the the rest of the group. It was driving me batty. I knew it was built right, the barrel was right the load was right it just was not grouping to the level a custom CF should be grouping with quality components. So my test proved two things to me. 1. Quit driving yourself batty over groups.They don't mean squat 2. Cold bore center shots are more important than groups. . |
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Post by nwtflogan on Feb 7, 2012 18:53:41 GMT -5
is much as it kills me to say it ...+1 ed and thanks for making that point......we all love and thrive for the tightest group but as you said its the first shot most of the time cold bore on a animal that matters!!!!!!! great point!!
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Post by edwardamason on Feb 7, 2012 18:59:56 GMT -5
I sat in on several of Jeff Coopers lectures and took one of his Master classes on rifle marksmanship. He was not big on shooting groups with rifles although he did say in his younger days that he dabbled a bit in shooting groups. I feel certain he did more than dabble in his younger days shooting groups but that's a topic for another discussion.
He was of the opinion if a man could routinely hit a 3 inch circle at 200 yards that the rifle was capable of killing big game animals anywhere on the planet. I fully agree with that.
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Post by edwardamason on Feb 7, 2012 19:03:06 GMT -5
is much as it kills me to say it ...+1 ed and thanks for making that point......we all love and thrive for the tightest group but as you said its the first shot most of the time cold bore on a animal that matters!!!!!!! great point!! I may have to take back half the bad things I said about you  Just half. Take care man. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2012 19:04:56 GMT -5
Cold Bore center shots... Brilliant I say! You are spot on, man!
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Post by edge on Feb 7, 2012 19:51:34 GMT -5
I have long advocated for using one target for all of the first shots... BUT if all of the number two shots don't group then I have a problem with long range.
Yes, ML should be a 1 shot game, BUT if you need #2 it may need to be even more accurate unless you just want break down the animal and keep adding lead!
Yes if he keeps moving keep sending shots downrange even if you are not confident of placement! Once you send 1 I think that you need to put as many holes as it takes to reduce the game to bag and that is where the multiple shot groups can help.
edge.
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 7, 2012 20:07:01 GMT -5
I have long advocated for using one target for all of the first shots... BUT if all of the number two shots don't group then I have a problem with long range. Yes, ML should be a 1 shot game, BUT if you need #2 it may need to be even more accurate unless you just want break down the animal and keep adding lead! Yes if he keeps moving keep sending shots downrange even if you are not confident of placement! Once you send 1 I think that you need to put as many holes as it takes to reduce the game to bag and that is where the multiple shot groups can help. edge. My saying is "you can't wound them worse." As long as the head is up, there's going to be lead in the air if I'm around. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2012 20:13:00 GMT -5
Right on Luke! You can't shoot 'em, if you don't shoot at 'em!
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Post by nwtflogan on Feb 7, 2012 20:48:33 GMT -5
Back at ya ed...lol.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2012 22:56:54 GMT -5
I will say that shooting groups at various distances have boosted my confidence in my ability to shoot game at long ranges. I've killed several deer at 300yds + with my Savage when it was a .50 and several more now it's a .45. If I didn't know where my rifle was going to consistently hit at those distances I would have never taken the shots.... Confidence comes from putting a lot of shots down range.... Finding a load combo that will consistently shoot an acceptable group at those ranges is very important in my book. I like a load combo that will put shot #1, #2, #3 in the same close vicinity.
Zen
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Post by jgss2 on Feb 8, 2012 9:58:39 GMT -5
I will say that shooting groups at various distances have boosted my confidence in my ability to shoot game at long ranges. I've killed several deer at 300yds + with my Savage when it was a .50 and several more now it's a .45. If I didn't know where my rifle was going to consistently hit at those distances I would have never taken the shots.... Confidence comes from putting a lot of shots down range.... Finding a load combo that will consistently shoot an acceptable group at those ranges is very important in my book. I like a load combo that will put shot #1, #2, #3 in the same close vicinity. Zen I agree 100% Having shot # 1 hit where its supposed to is paramount but I like working up loads for my gun that I have extreme confidence. Also it's fun to shoot groups and the paractice will make you a better shot when the time comes to pull the trigger on an animal at long range!! |
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