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Post by edge on Mar 16, 2009 13:12:32 GMT -5
Just a question for those replacing barrels.
If you have bedded your rifle before replacing it with a new barrel do you plan to re-bed the lug area?
If no, how will you ensure that it sits the same as before? I don't recall how far it can travel, but it is several degrees, including up and down, if I recall.
edge.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 16, 2009 13:53:40 GMT -5
I bedded mine after I made the barrel swap but I'm going to take a stab at this anyway! If the rifle was bedded before allowing clearance in the bottom,sides,and front of lug I wouldn't think there would be much of a problem. The emboss on the back of the lug should take care of most rotational movement.The back of lug should rest up tight against receiver like before. Any little indifferences would be minimal. I bet most stock Savages are in a worst condition! Now if the barrel nut and barrel ahead of lug was bedded before, that would be a different story. Edge, I'm sure you are throwing out a bait here but I'll bite!!!  |
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Post by edge on Mar 16, 2009 14:46:35 GMT -5
Nope, just curious.
In the past I have just put a wrap or two of tape around the recoil lug.
In the future I think that I will allow more to the sides and bottom to eliminate most interference.
edge.
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Post by Harley on Mar 16, 2009 15:13:03 GMT -5
Edge, I didn't know enough to worry about the lug/lug replacement, positional change, etc when I replaced my .50 for the .45; so, did nothing. I can't see why it shouldn't sit the same as before, since nothing has changed rearward of the recoil lug, and nothing is touching forward of the lug. I just opened up the barrel channel a little bit to accommodate the .45 (Richard's suggestion).
Harley
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Post by edge on Mar 16, 2009 15:24:07 GMT -5
The next time someone has a barrel loose, perhaps they could measure how far the recoil lug can move up and down and how far it can rock from side to side.
IMO, if you bedded the rifle and only allow a few thousandths on the sides of the recoil lug as it came from the factory.
If you scribe a line on the action and recoil lug a re-align those lines with the new barrel then I agree that you probably would not have a problem.
I don't recall now how much the lug can "swing" around the barrel while staying within the retention hole, but I thought that it was several degrees.
If that is the case then the lug can be "clocked" the the original action location and when you put the lug into its pocket on the stock, the action will be rotated.
edge.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 15:28:47 GMT -5
eDGE, I am rebedding the whole action, from the front of the nut to the front of the bolt cutout, the rest I am making sure is floated, the barrel has about .0075 all the way. the sss lug was wider so I had to do some cutting anyway so I just took some all over & left the pillars protruding 1/8.......Bill
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Post by rexxer on Mar 16, 2009 20:41:19 GMT -5
Edge
When I replaced my barrel I lapped the front side of the recoil lug and ground the side with the raised emboss. There was very little rotation between lug and receiver slot! I have seen people go in and mill clearance in sides and front of recoil lug after bedding.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 17, 2009 1:00:16 GMT -5
The next time someone has a barrel loose, perhaps they could measure how far the recoil lug can move up and down and how far it can rock from side to side. IMO, if you bedded the rifle and only allow a few thousandths on the sides of the recoil lug as it came from the factory. If you scribe a line on the action and recoil lug a re-align those lines with the new barrel then I agree that you probably would not have a problem. I don't recall now how much the lug can "swing" around the barrel while staying within the retention hole, but I thought that it was several degrees. If that is the case then the lug can be "clocked" the the original action location and when you put the lug into its pocket on the stock, the action will be rotated. edge. I'm not very worried that the recoil lug will move around the barrel axis. The lug receiver detent does allow some movement but it's not much.  This image shows my worries. It should be fairly obvious that the areas pointed out by the black arrows were not in contact with the barrel nut when the barrel was installed. This is because the lug is not flat and the barrel nut may be uneven as well. The extent that this will effect a rifle is unknown. As pointed out many rifles shoot fine without concern for lug care. However someone somewhere is going to have a problem. And when they do it's unlikely the problem will get solved without considerable difficulty.That is why I say it is CHEAP insurance against problems. This is like any other insurance: when you don't need it it's just an expense, if you do need it, you'd better have it. As far as bedding goes: I'd probably grind the lug area and touch it up. But that can be done any time. At least I wouldn't have to take the whole thing apart to do it later. |
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Post by edge on Mar 17, 2009 8:35:29 GMT -5
My main concern is how far the recoil lug can rotate within the detent area. On a non bedded Savage, the recoil lug area is very wide so even if it is not straight up and down it will only touch the stock on the back of the lug. If I were to fully bed the action and recoil lug, then if the recoil lug is rotated very little I can see binding of the action. Here is a sketch of what I am talking about:  On the left is a perfectly bedded action. There is 0.020 clearance around the sides and bottom of the recoil lug and 0.040 on either side of the action screws inside the Pillars. On the right, the recoil lug is rotated TWO degrees. As can be seen, the lug will hit the bedding in a little more than 1 degree so the action MUST revolve the other ONE degree. Depending on how much clearance there is around the trigger and Pillars there may be binding. IMO, this may be a legitimate reason to only bed the back of the recoil lug on a switch barrel rifle. Edge. |
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Post by rexxer on Mar 17, 2009 8:39:26 GMT -5
If I was changing out for a new barrel I would grind my lug or opt for a machined lug if my action wasn't bedded. I would then bed the action at this time.If my action was bedded before I would use original lug and do nothing. I think grinding or changing out for a new machined lug might do more harm than good on a previous bedded action.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 17, 2009 8:45:24 GMT -5
Edge- Yes ,I understand what you are saying and its quite possible if the detent is sloppy in the reciever slot. Mine wasn't but that is only one!!! I only bedded to the back of lug and the rest was cleared! Nice picture! Explains perfectly!
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Post by rbinar on Mar 17, 2009 8:53:17 GMT -5
8-)Edge your drawing seems to dictate the action will forced to a position by the recoil lug. If that were the case I'd also have worries about this problem.
However when you install the action the lug can be turned to one side but the lug will be a slave to the action angle. That angle will be determined by how well the receiver screws and action align. That because the recoil lug does not lock the action in an axial position.
You might be saying it will be locked after bedding, That's true but you can't bed without installing the action over the bedding and the action screws would again move the lug to their natural position not a position dictated by the lug.
I guess I should have tried to shorten that to: you can force the lug to a position by the screws but you can't force the screws by the lug.
This part added later:
After thinking about your post it occurred to me you might be talking about a previously bedded stock with a new barrel. In that case the case you refer to might happen but I still would think that would be very unlikely.
The reason I feel it was unlikely is the way the barrel nut is tightened and the fact it must be put back in near the same place.
When you tighten the barrel nut and action the lug is pushed in the direction of the tightening force so the lug is generally forced to one side of the detent to as far as it can go till it hit the stop. So most likely it would be hard to have much different a position as when it was taken off,
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Post by youp50 on Mar 17, 2009 8:53:35 GMT -5
Edge,
I would think that the lug and action would 'seat' itself to the bedding through recoil. If your luck runs as mine, accuracy would go down the tube. Perhaps what you need to do is rebarrel and try it.
If I had a stock lug, I would replace or modify it. Rebedding would then be necessary.
I have never seen a reason to bed the recoil lug any place other than the space between the lug and the stock towards the butt plate. I use modeling clay to keep the compound out. It functions well, but is not as pleasing to the eye as milling. I never invest the time to remove all the clay.
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Post by edge on Mar 17, 2009 9:15:03 GMT -5
8-)Edge your drawing seems to dictate the action will forced to a position by the recoil lug. If that were the case I'd also have worries about this problem. However when you install the action the lug can be turned to one side but the lug will be a slave to the action angle. That angle will be determined by how well the receiver screws and action align. That because the recoil lug does not lock the action in an axial position. You might be saying it will be locked after bedding, That's true but you can't bed without installing the action over the bedding and the action screws would again move the lug to their natural position not a position dictated by the lug. I guess I should have tried to shorten that to: you can force the lug to a position by the screws but you can't force the screws by the lug. I am describing a Previously bedded rifle! Most folks that bed the recoil lug use tape on the sides of the lug for clearance, but some use zero clearance. When you go to replace the barrel, the action is in a vise, not the stock. If the recoil lug is at an angle more than about One degree from the previously bedded location then the action MUST be rotated since the lug will no longer go into the bedding! Perhaps you could leave the barrel nut loose, and then set the action square into the stock. THEN, snug up the barrel nut. Remove the action from the stock, and take care to not move the lug while tightening the nut. edge. |
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Post by rbinar on Mar 17, 2009 9:23:24 GMT -5
8-)Sorry mark I can't think as fast as I can type:
this was my edit:
This part added later:
After thinking about your post it occurred to me you might be talking about a previously bedded stock with a new barrel. In that case the case you refer to might happen but I still would think that would be very unlikely.
The reason I feel it was unlikely is the way the barrel nut is tightened and the fact it must be put back in near the same place.
When you tighten the barrel nut and action the lug is pushed in the direction of the tightening force so the lug is generally forced to one side of the detent to as far as it can go till it hit the stop. So most likely it would be hard to have much different a position as when it was taken off,
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Post by edge on Mar 17, 2009 9:39:27 GMT -5
Thanks RB, that makes a lot of sense  edge. |
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