Misperception Concerning Unsized Bullets

[Dave W]

At least in my experiences. Unsized bullets shoot very well, IF and it is apparently a big IF, you have the right size barrel for the bullet. My barrel is a perfect fit for the Parker BE's, 250 or 275, no sizing or knurling is needed, they load with great consistency, there are no exaggerated differences in resistance. Bad Bull uses the three raised rings on the bearing surface of the Parkers to cover the variances in bore diameters, Magnum on the other board has shot some impressive groups with his Bad Bull without the need for knurling or at least no mention of knurling in his detailed posts. RB posted a ragged hole group recently with 300gr Hydracons that required no bullet prep.

I don't shoot the Parkers much, I don't care for the price and I don't see where they have any advantage terminally over a 250 SST, maybe a little for the 275 with its increased heft but Larry showed they can come unglued at close range at book powder load speeds depending on shot placement.

All 3 of these 200yd groups ranging from 1.0625"-1.25" involved no bullet prep.



SW, Harley, Big Moose and others have shown what sizing and knurling can produce as far as accuracy and I have had good results using the same methods, but I'm not sure there is any advantage shooting sized/knurled versus unsized bullets IF you have the right bore size.

I do believe sizing and knurling is the easiest route since getting lucky enough to have the right bore to bullet fit with no prep is about as easy as winning the lottery or finding a needle in a haystack it seems. I might as well quit buying lottery tickets since lightning striking twice seems very remote. IMO both methods work quite well.

[rbinar]

8-)I have been getting similar results if there is a GOOD fit for the bullet. The targets show Dave is a better shot but I still manage better than 2" at that range.

The absolute need in sabot-less shooting is a proper fit. If you have it or can make it (without a lot of trouble) then your results will be acceptable or better. Without the proper fit there is no need to spend a lot of time and effort.

As far as it just being luck for a perfect fit: it's true with exceptions. If you happen to have a barrel that's slightly small I've found that polishing will often provide a fit. However for those who'd prefer not to gamble with a new $350+ barrel I'll accept that sizing will work as well.

[rexxer]

So What is a good fit for a non-knurled bullet. I can see where a person might hope for a bore dia to shoot without sizing but how many bullets is the one magic barrel going to work for. Another thing is how consistent are the bullet diameters from one lot to the next. It would seem that it would be easier to reduce diameters and knurl back than to hope the next batch comes in right.

I notice rb posted the other night and said he received the perfect bore. What is this bore dia.? So in this Pacnor lottery who are the lucky winners?


Believe me I would love to shoot without resizing but I'm not sure it can be done on a regular basis. I think most bullets have too much bearing surface and a few tenths of a thousands will greatly increase in loading force. I think with the knurled bullet they can be less critical of dia. and still shoot. If were could buy bullets with rings like BadBull I think we would have a better chance at making this work.

By the way Dave,very nice groups!

[rkrobson]

Rexxer, Iam not sure what the Bad Bull Parkers look like, but Bob Parker has been providing me with 300 gr Hydracons with 3 knurled rings for several years now. He'll make them up to .454. I get them at .453 and size down, even though the .453 shoot great, they load hard and are good only when my gun is clean. Your need may be different, but this works great for me. They are as accurate as any bullet I've shot and are Colorado legal, Ray

[Harley]

DaveW, this may end up being a partisan dispute like arguing Ford vs Chevy in the '50's. I admit I've gone overboard in promoting knurling as THE way to go. I think I was the first person here to use that "winning the lottery" reference in getting the perfect barrel for unknurled accuracy and it reflected my belief that those barrels would be few, indeed. I didn't win that lottery, myself, and supposed so few would do so that knurling seemed the only way to go to achieve super accuracy. Your groups, and those that you've mentioned, show that it CAN be done if either you get lucky on the barrel draw or you are bold and talented enough to lap to perfection.

I'll try to tone it down.

Harley

[Dave W]

Thanks Rex. Those groups were shot over roughly 1 1/2 years, I don't buy Parkers in large quantities, some were under the Traditions name, some under Remington, some from Parker, so I doubt they were from the same lot but anything is possible. I don't measure the Parkers, they are one extremely accurate bullet and have always shot well once I found the charge weight and speed/pressure my gun likes, so I think they are fairly consistent. Kerry has the same barrel as me and gets inconsistent loading resistance, I just got lucky, and my barrel is only good for the Parkers, anything else must be sized as you pointed out.

My point was not to debate which is better or easier,"I highlighted which I believe is easier" but to show that unsized works just as well, at least for me anyways and apparently RB also.

If you haven't seen a Bad Bull bullet, the bearing surface looks like a Barnes XPB but the grooves are very shallow. I think Panhandle posted a picture of these on the old board.

[Dave W]

Mar 13, 2009 23:10:19 GMT -5 Harley said:

DaveW, this may end up being a partisan dispute like arguing Ford vs Chevy in the '50's. I admit I've gone overboard in promoting knurling as THE way to go. I think I was the first person here to use that "winning the lottery" reference in getting the perfect barrel for unknurled accuracy and it reflected my belief that those barrels would be few, indeed. I didn't win that lottery, myself, and supposed so few would do so that knurling seemed the only way to go to achieve super accuracy. Your groups, and those that you've mentioned, show that it CAN be done if either you get lucky on the barrel draw or you are bold and talented enough to lap to perfection.

I'll try to tone it down.

Harley

GOOD GRIEF MAN DON"T YOU DARE TONE ANYTHING DOWN. ;D
You are inspiring others and showing what is possible, I just wanted to present a different viewpoint even though it is the exception to the rule so to speak.

I second your thoughts on the other thread concerning repeatability of accuracy when it comes to the Parkers and sabotless. I have to alter the charge weight a little in the different seasons to shoot groups like I posted but if you can squeeze a good shot off, they go where you aim as you have proven, just wish they had prices in line with the SST. Good luck with the XTP's, I'm sure you will have them shooting one holers.

[rbinar]

Mar 13, 2009 21:32:45 GMT -5 rexxer said:

So What is a good fit for a non-knurled bullet. I can see where a person might hope for a bore dia to shoot without sizing but how many bullets is the one magic barrel going to work for. Another thing is how consistent are the bullet diameters from one lot to the next. It would seem that it would be easier to reduce diameters and knurl back than to hope the next batch comes in right.

I notice rb posted the other night and said he received the perfect bore. What is this bore dia.? So in this Pacnor lottery who are the lucky winners?


Believe me I would love to shoot without resizing but I'm not sure it can be done on a regular basis. I think most bullets have too much bearing surface and a few tenths of a thousands will greatly increase in loading force. I think with the knurled bullet they can be less critical of dia. and still shoot. If were could buy bullets with rings like BadBull I think we would have a better chance at making this work.

By the way Dave,very nice groups!

I am not sure I can answer all your questions with facts because I have a lot of shots sabot-less but with many different rifles.

Barrel wear may not become a problem for hundreds if not thousands of shots. The bullet diameter is not critical down to .0001" perhaps some number of that figure, fit has to be good not perfect.

If wear does occur adding knurling would be simple enough at that point.

I don't know the diameter of the barrels and don't make it a habit to get overly concerned about measuring things. Any dimension you get from a barrel maker will be about +/- .001" absolute with some exceptions. The exceptions cost a lot more.

The Parker is higher but Bob will make it about any way you want. If you give a dimension he'll try to match it. As far as other bullets there are reasons to size. The SST would be nice as a inexpensive alternative so a $35 die might be for you.

I'm not trying to tell shooters they should not size and knurl, only some may not have to.

[Harley]

Thanks, Dave. I feel the same way you do about the price of the Parkers; that's why I searched out some XTP's to play with. I bought, at one time, what I considered a lifetime supply of the Parkers. That was before the economy tanked; if I live longer than I calculated I won't have the money to replace them.

Harley

[bigmoose]

I probably don't have as much experience in resizing bulletsas some folks, RB, edge and Smokeeter come to mind as folks who have much more. However, I have been playing with it for almost two years, which translates into a 1000 rounds or more. In Lapping my barrel I was trying to got it to shoot Barnes 290gr TMZ out of the box. However, I stopped short, wise folks such as RB and Edge, told me I would ruin the barrel, they were 100 percent right, and since my rifle was great shooter I stopped short of my goal. By dumb luck, I ended up with a barrel that shot 300gr. Parkers untouched and knurled TMZ with great accuracy. While I shoot one hole groups from time to time I'm sure, some of you floks couldn't do it a will.
My one finnelly thought, to me the perfect muzzleloader would be one that can shoot un- resized bullets, out of the box and into the bore...period

[bigmoose]

"could do it at will."

Lack of education to the for, again

[rexxer]

So what is the perfect size for the .45 Pacnor? I don't think nobody's wants to answer this! What is the optimum loading force for a un-sized bullet?

I would like to shoot without resizing but there are many variables that concern me. rb posted the other night about getting the perfect bore. I believed he said he wanted his bores to run on the high side of the tolerance and thats what he got. So with this information I take it his bores are just shy of .451. This seem interesting to me so I tried to get a Parker to slide down my bore. It went down but was a little hard. My bore is a .4497 bore. If rb's bore is a strong .001 larger I would think his bore would be too loose for this lot of Parkers.


I think I might mess with putting some canneries on some bullets just for messing around. Bob Parker said he has a knurling machine he is messing with.

Now if we could order a custom dia bullet,rather it be knurled,ringed,or left alone might be worth a premium price for some. It would eliminate who won the lottery!

[Dave W]

I posted these numbers before:
I ran one of each through a clean barrel, takes between 45-55 lbs of force on a bathroom scale to get them started, once they engrave a little, the resistance declines into the 30-40 lb. range to shove them home. Once some copper fouling builds up resistance will increase but not a whole lot.

I ran a 250 BE through a heavily fouled barrel, 20+ shots, the 250 BE took 55lbs. to get it started, 35lbs. to push it home. The 275 loaded tighter, 50-55 lbs. to push home, the sized/knurled 300XTP loads nearly identical to these. Is this optimum-I have no clue, I can only speak for the end result. If it takes over a hundred pounds to get it down the barrel you may have problems like I do with the 300SST with intermittent fliers that end up a couple inches out of the group.

[rexxer]

Thanks Dave They look like nice numbers to try and shoot for! I better save these before I forget. I wonder what size dia. are the Parkers that Badbull uses. I think with the three rings it may cover a broader tolerance.

Is your barrel optimum- Pretty darn close!!!