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Post by nwtflogan on Oct 1, 2011 21:50:45 GMT -5
ok, my 10 year old loves my .45 pacnor and hes ready to move from his .50 cva optima, i had every intention of building him a .45 rem 700 and have bill put it together as he fell in love with ug....... my question is since its legal to go the .40 route here in ohio would i be better going that route for em for a flatter shooting rifle in the near future or is the .45 the standard now and .40 is too far out to get involved with?
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Post by mountainam on Oct 1, 2011 22:18:38 GMT -5
It's legal here in Ohio to go to a .375 (.38) cal. Think about it. Look at the difficulties the guys are going through trying to design a .40 cal bullet of a heavier weight than 200gr. If you go to a .375 sabotless there are a few more choices of lighter weight -----Real Rifle bullets that will out perform the .40cal pistol bullets available to you. There are .375" bullets available in weights from 200gr, 220gr 235gr and up. But a 220 gr flatpoint designed for the .375 Win still carries a higher sectional density than a .40 cal and will shoot flatter and penetrate farther weight to weight. Add the Swinglock full form die and you are at the next level. Be glad you live in Ohio. Other fellows in States that minimum caliber is .45 are not so lucky and will have to make due. You can take a jump ahead to take advantage a ballistic superiority without the lip streching recoil. The technology is here now. Take advantage
of it. Good luck on your decision!
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Post by nwtflogan on Oct 1, 2011 22:24:03 GMT -5
That's why I asked.....my son is every bit the shooter I am and he gave up his slug gun at 8....liked his. 50 optima better so I want to give him every edge that's available
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Post by Dave W on Oct 2, 2011 6:08:47 GMT -5
It's legal here in Ohio to go to a .375 (.38) cal. Think about it. Look at the difficulties the guys are going through trying to design a .40 cal bullet of a heavier weight than 200gr. If you go to a .375 sabotless there are a few more choices of lighter weight -----Real Rifle bullets that will out perform the .40cal pistol bullets available to you. There are .375" bullets available in weights from 200gr, 220gr 235gr and up. But a 220 gr flatpoint designed for the .375 Win still carries a higher sectional density than a .40 cal and will shoot flatter and penetrate farther weight to weight. Add the Swinglock full form die and you are at the next level. Be glad you live in Ohio. Other fellows in States that minimum caliber is .45 are not so lucky and will have to make due. You can take a jump ahead to take advantage a ballistic superiority without the lip streching recoil. The technology is here now. Take advantage of it. Good luck on your decision! Have you actually checked with DNR to see if this is legal? I know it rounds up to .38 but those guys can be nitpickers when they want to be and plus it would be a shame if a person got a B&C deer and could not enter it in the books or worse had it taken away and fined. Was thinking about a .416 Swinglock but a .375 would be make many more bullets available. Got anyone lined up to do the plug work? |
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Post by cuda on Oct 2, 2011 7:16:34 GMT -5
Do the 45 smokeless for him you can always change the stock as he grows. Set it up to shoot sabotless for him he will love to shoot it. As the years pass he will learn to shoot it better and better. I would think that the 45 would be the way to go for him with a Swinglock size die. It would still shoot flat enough for long range shots and still have the knock down power you need for deer. The 45 has a good asortment of bullets to choose from that have been proven to work. Just what I would do.
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Post by mountainam on Oct 2, 2011 7:42:18 GMT -5
DaveW, Actually I was contemplating a .358cal build. Is a .38 Special, 38S&W, .380 really .38 cal?? No, they are .35cal. I think it was Rossman40 that said the spirit of Ohio's Law was written long ago when most used patched round balls and was to prevent the use of a .36 cal RB shooting squirrel rifle from being used. Your .416 is cool,but on the downside you're smallest slug would weigh in excess of 300gr. I'm just not that tough anymore. The deal with .45's is that you are STILL shooting a lighter shorter bullet than what ANY .45cal rifle cartridge normally uses. No sense starting out with a flawed premise. Actually a sabotless .430"cal that shoots the Hornady 265FTX would be a great long AND short range performer with a Swinglock full form die. But then really, If I had my druthers, I would love to use my 6mm AI here in Ohio like I do for damage control permits. I WILL check before I begin. Oh yeah, on the plug. I have my choice of two master machinists that told me if I can draw it--- they can make it.
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Post by howa on Oct 2, 2011 8:18:01 GMT -5
Sounds like you already know what you want, go for it, and share your experiences so that we can learn along with you. Tennessee just this year changed their regs to .36 cal or larger for deer hunting. I need to find a way to take advantage of that. I'm thinking the breech plug machining would be the problem there for me.
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Post by jims on Oct 2, 2011 9:27:16 GMT -5
I have a .38, .40 .45 and .50 smokeless. The saboted loads are generally less finicky but my .40 has done well. The .38 has given me many tribulations and still not there yet.
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Post by nwtflogan on Oct 2, 2011 10:22:54 GMT -5
actually i wanted opinions from you guys that have a ton more smokeless time under your belt than i, but ill give the .40 a shot, should be alot of fun and it seems like its the next step smokeless but alot of states dont allow .40, but in ohio im lucky i guess so well go for it!
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Post by Jon on Oct 2, 2011 16:32:18 GMT -5
If you are really interested in a 40 and it is legal. PM SW, Chuck and others that have 40s I think you would be happy with the choice especially if you get a barrel with a drop and have a full form die made. You in my estimation will be in a whole new and I think improved world. But that is why I say check with the people that know. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Jon
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2011 7:58:43 GMT -5
After seeing what your son and you did with your new pacnor .45,
why not get another one ? No need to get different bullets,sabots,powder,technology"sabotless".
IMO thats what I would do, get the drop from the new barrel and
get a fullform die that in all probability you both can use to explore the .45 sabotless world with both guns with some parker xtremes.
On the other hand, you have a RANGE at your backdoor and another caliber rifle can be a learning experience for both of you.
Good luck with it either way...........
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Post by nwtflogan on Oct 3, 2011 8:33:14 GMT -5
Tough choice but was thinking the next step is the. 40..definitely would be a fun learning curve to see em side by side
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Post by fishhawk on Oct 3, 2011 9:21:22 GMT -5
Sabotless shooting can be tempermental. For a 10 year old I would keep it as basic as possible and go .45 saboted (he already likes your Pacnor). Sabotless can be tried later using long range bullets such as the Parkers. I have trouble setting up shots much longer than 300yds here in Ohio, the saboted .45 can easily do this with some wind doping.
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Post by nwtflogan on Oct 3, 2011 14:50:04 GMT -5
was still planning on going sabotless for the moment...... my max shot would be 300 where i hunt but as good of a shot as my son is i still want him shooting under 200, and even at that it will be off of sticks in our blind.......
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Post by howa on Nov 8, 2011 16:01:58 GMT -5
Been a month since last post, any updates? I can't decide what I want to do either, seems silly to build another .45 when I have one already.
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Post by nwtflogan on Nov 12, 2011 19:24:42 GMT -5
im going to go the .40 route howa....... no sense in two .45's and i think we are on the verge of the .40 getting alot of love.....just a hunch!
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Post by rossman40 on Nov 22, 2011 11:50:16 GMT -5
Now I'm in the same boat. #1 grandson (he will be 9 next year) wants to hunt but the big .50 scared him. Then behind him is 2 granddaughters also showing interest. I thought about finding a H&R in 35 Whelen and just putting a breechplug in it. 22" barrel and just chop the stock to fit the young ones. Sabotless the Hornady 140gr FTX or 180gr SP-SSP would be ideal or even the heavy XTPs. Less then $300 project. Any of the mentioned bullets pumped out in the neighborhood 2000fps would be a low recoil 100yd deer slayer. For plinking MMP makes a .36 sabot that takes a .32 bullet that might be interesting.
But then there is the legal issues since Ohio has the .38 caliber rule. Me and Jims just had this conversation. I could ask one of the Game Wardens but if one says .358 is a .38 you may run into another one (plus a judge) that says it isn't. Maybe we could track down some folks at the DNR for a clarification in writing.
If I go the .375 route right off the bat your looking at a custom barrel so the cost of the project doubles at least. Then I think there is only like one bullet that is 200gr (Barnes did make a Original in 255gr for the 38-55 [.377] that would be awesome) all the others are heavier so recoil would be just about the same as a .45. Not to mention a lot of the bullets are "dangerous game" bullets.
Still the Handi-rifle in .35 Whelen would make a cheap test bed to experiment with and has my curiosity up. If I seen one for less then $150 at the gun show I would probly come home with it. But then again for the grandkids I could get one in 45-70 and be legal all the way at the same cost and let them shoot saboted with 180 or 200gr .40 bullets.
The .40 still is interesting and I would jump on one if sabots were availible to shoot .358 bullets. RB was looking into having sabots made just before he passed away. A few guys went that route with Pacnors but there were a lot of barrel bulges I think due to the height of the powder column.
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