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Post by meltaylor on Mar 10, 2009 22:56:06 GMT -5
About a week ago someone on the board mentioned the use of round balls in the Savage ML’s. At one time I shot a lot of .457 round balls with 5744 and standard MMP sabots in both my Savages for jackrabbits (which are considered varmints here) and plinking.
I can't remember all the specifics anymore but the gist of it is that after target shooting and plinking with 250 gr. XTPs and somewhere around 45 or 50 gr. of 5744 for a couple of hours I got bored. So, just for the heck of it I poured the same load of powder down the barrel, slapped a .457 roundball in an MMP sabot down on top of it and, to my amazement, found that I could consistently knock off ordinary tin cans (the 15oz size) at a measured hundred yards.
If I remember correctly the recoil was really mild. My backstop was a hard clay berm and when I recovered the balls I believe they were flattened out to about the size of a dime and were apparently intact. Over the next few months I killed a lot of jacks and tin cans with that same load.
I never tried to chrony the balls but since a .457 round ball weighs around 146 grains without the sabot I assume they were clipping along at a pretty good pace.
At the suggestion of someone on the board I cut the powder load down to around 30 gr. so my young grandsons could shoot comfortably. It was like shooting a .22 and they had a lot of fun plinking with it.
NOW FOR THE CAVEAT: I quit shooting roundballs with sabots when I loaded powder, ball and sabot one day, turned the rifle muzzle down to put the primer in, and the ball rolled out the end of the barrel. I may not be the sharpest knife in the rack but it was pretty obvious to me that the sabot simply wasn’t designed to hold a round ball firmly enough to prevent the ball from becoming an obstruction in the barrel. That was the end of my shooting roundballs.
Since the roundballs were so much fun to shoot I always intended to try it with cloth patch and Pyrodex but never did get around to it. If anyone else has tried that I would like to know about it.
Mel
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Post by joe21a on Mar 11, 2009 9:36:54 GMT -5
You may have luck with a bigger dia. round ball. The make the molds in several different dia. One should make a tight fit.
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 11, 2009 9:40:43 GMT -5
I've never had a problem with lead bullets, but edge claimed that he experienced misfires from loads left in his gun, he thought they lost their tightness to the bore over extended periods of time. Maybe that along with the small bearing surface of the round ball to the bore would explain your findings.
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Post by carlv on Mar 11, 2009 10:47:17 GMT -5
Patched ball in a sabot?
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Post by meltaylor on Mar 11, 2009 11:04:36 GMT -5
I never had any ignition problems or misfires as long as I stayed with the .457 balls. Ignition was a problem with .454 balls but I only tried a few of them and disposed of the remainder when they wouldn't work. I miked the ball that rolled out of the barrel and it was the same diameter as the rest of the .457s. I never left any loads in the gun - ever. And yes, I'm sure the small bearing surface was the cause of the problem.
There were a couple of other factors that I didn't mention in the first post: It was a warm day and I had been shooting for awhile when that happened. Possibly the barrel was a little warmer than usual. I suppose that might have softened the sabot enough to let the ball roll free of the sabot although I doubt it was that warm. Also, I loaded the gun except for the primer and laid it on the shooting bench while me and another guy discussed some problem he was having with his scope. One or both of us may have picked my rifle up a time or two, looked through the scope and laid it back down, and in doing that jarred the ball out of the sabot. I simply don't remember anymore.
None of that really matters. The fact is that if that ball had been even a very short distance from the sabot when I pulled the trigger and ignition had occurred I would have been firing a rifle with a obstructed barrel. Not a good situation.
Aside from the obvious physical danger, I had already had to send one of my 10MLs back to Savage with a bulged barrel for no apparent reason except that I had put somewhere over two thousand rounds of Savage recommended loads and bullets through it. I really didn't relish the thought of telling the people at Savage that I had bulged (or blown up?) another barrel by my own stupidity.
If anyone ever does produce plastic sabots designed specifically for round balls and I'm fully convinced that they are reliable and safe I might try shooting roundballs and smokeless again. Until then as long as I'm shooting smokeless I'll stick with ordinary bullets.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 11, 2009 11:19:43 GMT -5
The fact is that if that ball had been even a very short distance from the sabot when I pulled the trigger and ignition had occurred I would have been firing a rifle with a obstructed barrel. Not a good situation. Aside from the obvious physical danger, I had already had to send one of my 10MLs back to Savage with a bulged barrel for no apparent reason except that I had put somewhere over two thousand rounds of Savage recommended loads and bullets through it. I really didn't relish the thought of telling the people at Savage that I had bulged (or blown up?) another barrel by my own stupidity. I don't know, but I'm having a hard time imagining that this situation would have caused any damage or presented physical harm. It doesn't seem like a .457 lead ball that can roll down the barrel would cause much obstruction when the big light hit, but I may be way off base. Even if it hit a tight spot and hung up, the lead should easily obturate and head downrange without hesitating, I think. Wouldn't it? |
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Post by youp50 on Mar 11, 2009 11:59:18 GMT -5
There is a theory that a start/stop in a barrel causes damage. According to Lee Reloading manual it has not been reproduced in a laboratory. Itis theorized that with light load gets a bullet started but does not keep it in motion, it stops and then the powder ignites and then the barrel gets stressed, maybe a bulge maybe more catastrophic.
Years ago I had some plastic cup sabot kind of things that were supposed to take the place of a patch in a 45 caliber ML. They did not consistently hold the ball in them. At that time Michigan had a round ball only rule. They received bad press and were recommended to dispose of them for a safety issue. In a ML, if a projectile is not on contact with the powder when the powder is ignited bad things have happened.
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Post by meltaylor on Mar 11, 2009 12:33:44 GMT -5
A friend of mine had some of those plastic cups for round balls for his 50 caliber TC Hawken and they apparently worked very well for him. He never did know why the company stopped producing them. I guess your post explains that.
I know almost nothing about the physics of powder ignition and the pressures involved but I can imagine that gasses moving at a high rate of speed in a rifle barrel suddenly encountering an object such as a bullet or ball (regardless of whether the object fits tightly or not) would develop a pressure spike that could cause serious damage.
Anyhow, I'm not willing to chance it again.
Mel
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lc
Forkhorn
Posts: 72
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Post by lc on Mar 11, 2009 12:55:34 GMT -5
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Post by meltaylor on Mar 11, 2009 14:05:44 GMT -5
Ic,
Thanks for the info. I'll pass it on to my buddy with the Hawken and I may even consider them myself - after I do a little more imvestigation.
Mel
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Post by DHinMN on Mar 11, 2009 14:25:57 GMT -5
Back in the early 80's when I first got my Hawken I used the poly-patch and round ball like meltaylor discribes. We shot our guns off at the end of the day just to unload and clean them. One time at the end of the season instead of shooting it off I decided to pull the ball. All I got out was the poly-patch. The ball had fallen out. I think I hunted that year with blanks.
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Post by carlv on Mar 11, 2009 14:26:24 GMT -5
Funny that the sabots are listed for .485 round balls, and the only way you can buy the .485 balls is with their sabots for .50 each.  I used these years ago in my TC Hawkin. Killed 2 or 3 mule deer and a bunch of white tails with them. As long as you kept the range under 75 yards or so they opened up real well and almost always passed through. |
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