|
Post by Dave W on Sept 7, 2011 17:52:03 GMT -5
This 5 shot .675", possibly smaller since I think one of the reversed duplex loads was the lowest shot in the cluster but can't say for certain. Or this 3 shot .362"? Same load shot at 100yds.
|
|
|
Post by DBinNY on Sept 7, 2011 18:49:32 GMT -5
You certainly won't be able to interview the deer ;D. I'd be plenty happy with either!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 21:02:55 GMT -5
What powders ? Those are very nice groups..... Might work for me......
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Sept 7, 2011 21:56:10 GMT -5
The 3-shot group if it is repeatable.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Sept 8, 2011 5:23:47 GMT -5
Normally I would answer the smaller group is better. But after reading DBinNY’s response both are considered excellent groups for their intended purpose. Nicely done either way.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by dave d. on Sept 8, 2011 7:19:17 GMT -5
:)Dave excellent shooting. Both those groups are awsome. For deer hunting you could stop at 3 and use the other 2 bullets for deer ;D.
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Sept 8, 2011 7:53:43 GMT -5
I inadvertently worded the title incorrectly. It should have been - Which group tells you more? The answer is- the same- a lie, which this 4 shot group shows. The combo has a glitch where without warning I lose 60-75fps and the result is this: It was not the wind! Unfortunately all the groups are repeatable, maybe not the .362, I'm not a sub .4 shooter but the load will shoot ragged hole groups with very low ES'es but with the occasional flier where there is always the nearly identical loss in velocity. The kicker, I've went as many as 8 shots or as little as 2 before the glitch shows up. The point is, there might be a magic number but it is not 5 and it is not 3, maybe 10? Tar typed the key word, repeatable! Until I shoot a combo on numerous occasions in a variety of conditions I have no faith or trust in a load, usually it takes at least 3 trips sub MOA before I think I might have found something, and yes they are 3 or 4 shot groups, not 5. I consider 5-3's sub MOA better than 3-5's, "either very impressive" simply because I let the conditions play a larger role, but I'm a hunter, not a paper puncher. GH-N110/H322 duplex. Thanks for the kind words all.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 8, 2011 9:11:15 GMT -5
The thing is mean proble error. The more rounds you shoot, the more it shows. If you were to shoot 100 rounds 50% would land within 1 MPE, lets say 1/2", of the Mean Point of Impact (MPI). 32% would land 1/2"- 1" away from the MPI, 14% would land 1"-11/2" and finally 4% would land 11/2"-2" away. You can get lucky and shoot three rounds from the 50% and strut around showing off your 1/2" group and then the next group you can get 2 rounds from the 50% group and then one from the 4% that lands 2" away and call it a flyer when actually it isn't.
To tighten things up you have to have consistancy of all the varibles. Things like bore condition, atmospheric conditions, bullet weight and balance, not to mention consistancy of the charge, sabot and even the primer. Then of course the biggest varible, the shooter himself.
If you could take your 5 3 shot groups and super impose them you could see the pattern perhaps. It may even look the same as 3 5shot groups.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2011 11:28:19 GMT -5
Rossman...........thank you for an intelligent interpretation of why I tend to encourage more than just three shots. And yes, I agree that five three shot groups are great also. The thing is, like you said, a person shoot ONE three shot group and thinks his gun is a "one holer?" When in effect it is not. In effect, the shooter is just kidding himself and has something he can put in his wallet to impress friends. In all statistical analysis, the larger the sample the more valid the results. But no Tar..........the deer will never know the difference ...........at least at the yardage most are shot at;) Richard
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Sept 8, 2011 12:06:50 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying Richard. What I am trying to convey is that I think you can find a greater amount of consistancy shooting 3 shot groups as opposed to groups with a higher number of shots per group. I have noticed in your groups(I am speaking of the ones that showed clear potential) that the first 3 are USUALLY the best of that group.I have found that to be true with my current combo as well and this is just not one sampling. How often have you remarked that you had a outstanding 3 shot group going only to have it open up on the 4th and 5th shot? Is it not folly to buck the 3 shot percentages?
|
|
|
Post by lwh723 on Sept 8, 2011 12:38:51 GMT -5
Obviously, if you're just comparing 1 group. A 5 shot group is going to give you more statistical confidence if all things remain constant. But I would argue that typically they do not. I'll pick the low hanging fruit: barrel heat. It's been bad enough in my experience with 3 shot groups, I know it's even worse with 5 shot groups. Sure, you can use a barrel cooler, but I would argue that opens up another can of variable worms (moisture, inconsistent temps, etc). Therefore, I would argue that if you were taking results over a period of time. 3 shots groups would give a more accurate depiction of the rifle's potential for performance (as a hunting rig) than 5 shot groups would. If it's just a target rig, then who cares--to each his own in that case. Let me know when they start the smokeless muzzleloading world benchrest championship series.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 8, 2011 12:49:42 GMT -5
I think the problem that we run into is bore condition and temp which is kinda hard to maintain over a 5 shot string with a 10ML. With centerfire maybe 10 or 20 shot may be the limit as far as bore condition.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2011 13:18:20 GMT -5
Tar................not meaning to be argumentative, but that is in fact the point.............not many of the five shot groups I have posted have the first 3 in the tight group? ?? You really need to look them over more closely? I am going to put a post on yesterdays shooting and you see for your self? It just varies all over the place. No rhyme or reason? I have put together more good "three out of five" groups where the first shot is not in the equation? As long as I can keep my barrel temperature somewhat constant, there is no telling which shot is going out of the group? After as much competitive shooting as I do, I know when I have pulled a shot or where I know the crosshairs were not where they were supposed to be. You will very rarely hear me say: "called flyer" or "I pulled that one". I have all the confidence that when a shot leaves the group that it is because of some thing other than shooting error. My set up is just that good. And what is worse, is when I have a very low ES and I still get an unexplained flyer? Believe me, if the trend was that the first three shots produced the best groups the majority of times? I would switch to shooting multiple three shot groups? An added reason to shoot more shots in a group, particularly when chronographing, is that you get a better read on your velocity. The type of chronographs most of us are using (1' to 2' photo cell spacing) do not lend themselves to a high degree of accuracy so the larger the sample, the better the results. Richard
|
|
|
Post by edge on Sept 8, 2011 14:02:04 GMT -5
IMO, if you only shoot one deer in a hunting session then only the first shot matters. With that in mind I have said many times that you might want to shoot your first shot at one target and all of the rest of your shooting session at another one.
You can shoot at this one target as long as you want and see how large your dispersion really is for "x" number of shots. The advantage would be that you would shoot this First shot in all types of conditions, but barrel heat would never be a factor.
edge.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2011 14:39:41 GMT -5
Mark.........that is very true.... IF you can maintain the same barrel condition for each "first" shot? And, you don't play with scope settings; And the weather conditions are the same? The theory is good if you live in a place where you can go out in your yard when ever you want (probably do it in less than a day?) and fire that "first" shot. Chances are for me? I get to the range one week and it is 70* and the next it is 40 or the wind is up one week and not the next or blowing in a different direction (unlike the TUNNEL ) Here again, if your groups are small enough no matter when you shoot, the deer are going to be in trouble. Yes, it may be a 1/2" left or 1? lower or higher? But as long as they group close enough, the rest only matters to a paper puncher and he can adjust for the conditions on his sighter target ;D Richard
|
|
|
Post by edge on Sept 8, 2011 15:19:11 GMT -5
Richard I disagree with your need for the same conditions! As a hunter I really need to know where the first shot will go in all weather and barrel conditions. I do agree that changing your scope does cause problems...which is why I almost never do I see no reason to adjust my scope when I shoot. I would much prefer to know that Load #1 hits the bull and Load #2 hits low right. I find that to be very important. If I can't find N120 I would like to know that my RL7 load should hit a known distance from my N120 load. If I know where it should hit, then I shoot one shot with my RL7 load to verify POI AND THEN since I am going hunting I would adjust my scope but only after verifying that it hit where it should. If I find more N120 and I choose to hunt with it I take a shot to verify POI as compared to my RL7 load and move back the required clicks on my scope. IMO, this verifies both scope and load with a single shot. edge.
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Sept 8, 2011 16:03:08 GMT -5
Edge that is 100% right but a lot of people don't have the advantage of having the same target to shoot at every day. Unless you take down the target and put it up the next time you are able to shoot many things may have changed. I agree in a perfect world that would be great. I think everyone has to agree this is far from a perfect world. Jon
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Sept 8, 2011 17:16:12 GMT -5
I'm going to rule out barrel temp as a factor with this particular load since I don't use a cool rod and I monitor barrel temp with a barrel thermometer. I never shoot at ambient, just don't have the patience to let the gun cool that much after 5 foulers which this load needs, but the barrel was within a two degree spread for each shot. Barrel temp for the 5 shot was low 90's, upper 70's for the 3 shot, no clue on the 4 shot since this was from a year ago and I abandoned this bullet and went back to the Parkers.
If I was not using a chrony, I would have thought the fliers were an uncalled pull. The chronograph is IMO one of the most important tools you can have at your disposal.
|
|
|
Post by shooter on Sept 8, 2011 19:30:17 GMT -5
I'm going to rule out barrel temp as a factor with this particular load since I don't use a cool rod and I monitor barrel temp with a barrel thermometer. I never shoot at ambient, just don't have the patience to let the gun cool that much after 5 foulers which this load needs, but the barrel was within a two degree spread for each shot. Barrel temp for the 5 shot was low 90's, upper 70's for the 3 shot, no clue on the 4 shot since this was from a year ago and I abandoned this bullet and went back to the Parkers. If I was not using a chrony, I would have thought the fliers were an uncalled pull. The chronograph is IMO one of the most important tools you can have at your disposal. what Dave said nicely said Dave. great shoo-tin by the way. ;D
|
|
|
Post by DBinNY on Sept 9, 2011 20:12:51 GMT -5
I've posted this before but it you really want to know: h1.ripway.com/dougsboard/standard%20deviation.pdfNeither is better. They are all valid. What do you want to do? Put 5 (or any other number) shots as close together as possible at one time or have first shot reliability under a variety of environmental conditions? Lately I'm pretty impressed by Tar's one shot groups on deer. I also enjoy reviewing Richard's 5 shot groups from his weekly outings. I find repeatable 3 shot groups great confidence builders. Just different games. They are all fun and they are all valid.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 23:32:16 GMT -5
Tar has been putting up some nice 1 shots lately .
|
|