Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 14:32:20 GMT -5
If a sampler of bullets and sabots were to be offered ?
What would be in it ? I'm thinking 5-10 bullets of the same kind times 3,with 3 different sabots 5-10 of each.
I think a sampler would help the new members find their load combo without having to buy a bunch of components that won't work.
Any thoughts...?
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Post by Richard on Aug 28, 2011 15:07:59 GMT -5
For the .50?.................
10 ---- 250 gr. XTP's
10------250 gr. SST's
10........300 gr. Rem's
20 Harvester Red Crush Ribs
10 Harvester Black Crush Ribs
Keep it simple!
Are you planning on putting these sampler packs together?
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 16:05:03 GMT -5
I am not sure what I am going to do with the idea. I just keep seeing repetitous problems coming from new ml2 owners,SO... why not try to help these lost souls a little bit with known combos that work in the savage. If you want to put them together ,go ahead Richard. IMO it would save many fruitless/frustrating trips to the range.
If they can find a tight bullet/sabot combo,more than half of the equation is solved,THEN they could actually work on the powder aspect of it.
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metro
Button Buck
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Post by metro on Aug 28, 2011 16:29:26 GMT -5
I'm just gonna go with a 300 grain sst and the VV N120 I believe. If it doesn't work I'm just gonna thrown the gun away.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 16:50:20 GMT -5
Rome wasn't built in one day. Just think where you would be if this board did not exist.
Patience my friend.
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Post by tar12 on Aug 28, 2011 17:45:54 GMT -5
I'm just gonna go with a 300 grain sst and the VV N120 I believe. If it doesn't work I'm just gonna thrown the gun away. Send your address via pm and I will give something for it and even pay the postage! ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 17:59:56 GMT -5
He has to finish paying for the gun first TAR. IMO,you both ARE jumping the gun , I'll bet you he don't sell it once he shoots it. BET?  |
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Post by tar12 on Aug 28, 2011 20:20:07 GMT -5
He has to finish paying for the gun first TAR. IMO,you both ARE jumping the gun , I'll bet you he don't sell it once he shoots it. BET? I had to get on the list first just in case! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 21:46:44 GMT -5
TRUTH be known.. you beat me to it ,Dang it,you snaked me,lol......
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Post by Chris Champion on Aug 28, 2011 22:17:56 GMT -5
I'm just gonna go with a 300 grain sst and the VV N120 I believe. If it doesn't work I'm just gonna thrown the gun away. Send your address via pm and I will give something for it and even pay the postage! ;D What a guy!!! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by tar12 on Aug 29, 2011 6:52:02 GMT -5
Send your address via pm and I will give something for it and even pay the postage! ;D What a guy!!! ;D ;D ;D I try Chris...I surely do... ;D |
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Post by ccchunter on Aug 29, 2011 17:52:20 GMT -5
Good idea.
I've probably spent between one fourth to one half on components of what I paid for the gun.
I'm determined to get mine to shoot and I believe I have the stuff bought to do it with, but I need more time at the range. Gotta work too and feed that family.
Nate
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 19:50:37 GMT -5
CCChunter,
thanks for getting to my point
what has NOT worked for you so far? I will try to keep them on the Don't waste time on these list.
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Post by ccchunter on Aug 30, 2011 10:52:53 GMT -5
Greenhorn, Several ideas come to mind after thinking about this for awhile. 1. A new ML comes with a starter pack: 5 250gr XTP's and 5 MMP short black sabots. Their manual recommends 3 powders: 43 gr of 4759, 44 gr of 5744, 42 gr of n110. I had bought 5744 because RW's website highly recommended it. I tried 40,41,42,43,44 grs and my groups averaged between 2 and 4 inches. RW says Savage's go to factory test load is 42 gr of n110 or 4759, which I recently bought but have not tried yet. www.randywakeman.com/MOAand300YardDOAMuzzleloadingSavage_10ML.htmConversely, the ML pros on this site seem to agree that no .451 or .452 load will outperform a .458 load. I can understand the logic behind it. From what I've read, Henry Ball designed this gun around a 300 gr projectile. I've also tried Barnes 275gr xpb with n120, hornady 300 gr .458 (this showed some potential-gonna try different sabot) w/ n120, Barnes 290tez with n120, 300 gr sst's w/ n120 and 5744. All loads were with MMP sabots which Savage HIGHLY RECOMMENDS. ( I've since bought 3 different Harvestor offerings and will try soon) I realize any of the combinations I've tried may perform great with a different sabot. (or powder) As you can see, I've made a concerted effort to get my gun to shoot. And yes, I can shoot. I've worked laboriously with my centerfire rifles to get them to shoot MOA. And they do. I would LOVE to try the BO. But $50 plus shipping has kept me from trying them with the thought my gun may not like em, so there they sit on the shelf. I've looked everywhere for them in stores but noone carries them. Others have wrote in to give recommendations about recoil lug, trigger (mine breaks clean at 3 lbs.), scope mounting, etc. I value these tips. The subject of this thread being "starter pack", I have an idea. We assume everyone can shoot well. 2. Can we do a survey of members on this site? What does your .50 shoot THE BEST? List bullet, sabot, powder (exact grains) and see if there is some commonality. Take the top 3 combos and list them somewhere for a starting point for new ML owners. If you look at the Load Data section, it's a great resource, but frankly for a new ML owner it's too much information. I realize every gun is different. I think one thing that scares some away from smokeless muzzleloading is that you really become a reloader. Any thoughts on this will be welcome. Nate |
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 30, 2011 11:31:13 GMT -5
I think some folks are missing, what I think is part of the fun, experimenting with different loads
Just becauce a load shoots lights out in my rifle, is no gaurantee, it do the same in other rifles
I started with 250 & 300 XTP with book loads they were super accurate in my .50, since than I have shot most bullets and loads out there.When I got my RB .45 I really got into experimenting, great fun.
Now I'm hung up on big boomers, maybe next year it will be something new [man plans GOD laughs] especially if the man has 4 stents in his heart ;D
Marty
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Post by ccchunter on Aug 30, 2011 11:53:18 GMT -5
I agree, Big Moose, that the variety of options is exciting to explore. I think what Greenhorn was getting at was trying to help people who have no baseline load, to get one.
If I could have got either the 250xtp of 300 to shoot really good right off I would have been very pleased. But I didn't have as good a luck.
There are endless possibilities, not to even mention duplexing, 40's and 45's, and all the rest. It's really amazing what I'm learning from this board.
I'm not discouraged with my gun. I'll get it to shoot. I just figured with the loads I've put through it I would have already found a sweet spot.
My TC Encore loves the 250xtp with 110 gr of Pyrodex. It'll shoot 1 to 1.5 in groups all day long.
Thanks for the input.
Nate
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Post by ET on Aug 30, 2011 12:52:40 GMT -5
Ccchunter
Interesting thought about the survey but can you derive a commonality?
For example;
My best load that will shoot under MOA is 44.5gr of 4759 using 250SST tucked in a black Harvester sabot. Oh I also use Cheddite primers and a recessed BP.
Sounds good doesn’t it?
But what is lacking is a lot of other information for me to accomplish this kind of accuracy.
I have a black synthetic stock 10ML-II topped with a SS barrel.
The barrel has been lightly lapped and re-crowned with an 11-dgree crown along with a 15-degree chamfer that’s .090” deep.
The stock has been fully bedded, a recoil reducer added, after market recoil pad added and the forearm has been stiffened.
Now let’s get to the loading.
I use a ramrod guide to keep the pressure centered when loading.
I trim and index my sabots.
I store my sabots and loading components out of sunlight.
When the load is being seated, after bottoming I lean on the ramrod for a few seconds in trying to keep the loading pressure fairly consistent.
Okay I’m starting off with my first shot but what is taken into consideration next is as follows;
After every shot I dry swab my bore. After 4-5 shots I do an intermittent bore cleaning.
Between shots I use a cooling rod without the assist of a cold pod. Cooling time with rod is dependent on ambient temp. If ambient temp is high then my groups will not shoot as good as when ambient temp is lower.
Also placement of forestock on front rest is done reasonably close to the recoil lug and same location every time.
Sorry for the long winded post but trying to show info that may be lacking if the survey is not limited to 10ML-II’s that have not been modified along with the loading technique being employed.
Ed
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Post by ccchunter on Aug 30, 2011 13:15:53 GMT -5
You're right, ET. It may be impossible to arrive at a general consensus considering all variables.
I have a bone stock factory .50, as do most people starting out. Most people do not get to the point you're at without some measure of experience and ALOT of shooting.
But every Savage ML owner on this board started out with their first basic load or two. That's what I have in mind. People could go back and check their records when they first started out with their new gun.
Anyway, it's just an idea. It may not be possible to accomplish but we can hash it out and see where it goes.
Nate
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curt
8 Pointer
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Post by curt on Aug 30, 2011 13:28:54 GMT -5
as a new ML-11 owner I can attest to the frustration to shooting this rifle. If it had not been for this site and the 5 bullets that came w/ the rifle I would have sold it. But... I'm learning, tight means everything. So far my best load is w/ the 300 Hornady SST and harvertor smooth using 60 gr VV120 and produces about 2250 fps and right at 1" at 125 yds, this is w/ knurling the bullet. The Hornady 300 HP w/ harvestor rib does not shoot for me as well about 3" or so. I ran them on my Vern Junkie machine and I can understand why.
I think this is a great idea as far as a sampler pack and would be interested in one if and when it is put together, as there are a few things I'd like to try, such as Remingtons 300's BO's' the 250 SST and the 200 SST for varmints. and some 350 gr 50 cal sabotless Hornady's.
If not this maybe someone could put up a trade site where we could share 10 or so bullets, sabots or what we have to try.
Thanks guys
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 14:41:01 GMT -5
I'm going to take some suggestions for week or so and see what I can get together. .45 cal would be easier because the blue harvester sabot IS THE ONE 90-100% of the time. Richard thinking that the red and the black cr harvesters are going to fit most .50 cal. IMO one more sabot type would make a more versatile kit,any suggestion anyone? ? Richard, your bullet suggestions seem to be reasonable, I think the Bo's will be a definite in the kit , I know they are expensive ,but if your gun is going to shoot, IMO and others it has the best chance to with them. |
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Post by ET on Aug 30, 2011 15:56:20 GMT -5
Ccchunter
Okay here’s my original journey with the 10ML-II.
Out of the box I was lucky to get a 2” group at 100yds using book load of the 43gr. of the old 4759 with the old 250SST. After hearing about a few others having burrs on their lands I decided to check mine. Sure enough I found 2-land edges that indicated burr markings on the sabot. Here I used about 3-400 strokes of JB to get rid of the burrs. My groups improved to just over 1-1/2”. Next improvement was going from the regular MMP sabots to their HPH-24 sabots for my tight bore. They didn’t load quite as tight as their regular sabots but again my groups improved to just under 1-1/2”. With MMP sabots in my 10ML-II as soon as the ambient temp neared 70F my groups also went south and really started to open up again. Until I switched to Harvester sabots I wouldn’t even shoot a load when temps were nearing 70F.
The only real comments I can make here that might be helpful is starting powder load of 45gr of the new 4759 that comes in 1lb plastic containers. The new 250SST is not quite as accurate as the old 250SST but I can still produce around MOA accuracy for me. Definitely watch that barrel heat and a cooling rod is very helpful in reducing your wait time. If you start good and accuracy starts to degrade quickly then stop and do a bore cleaning. Also keep a watchful eye on the vent liner opening because this too can affect accuracy.
Hope something useful for you here.
Ed
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 18:41:37 GMT -5
Thanks Ed ,
If you have a new ml2 then you have something to START with out of the box. I guess REALISTICALLY a 1.50 , 100yd. group would be a great STARTING point to reach after getting use to the whole loading,shooting technique. Easy alterationions like taking all of the hardware off and use a collapsable rod, Lapping the Barrel as Et mentioned and so on ................
But as I've seen in my short past here that quite a few have great difficulty in coming close to that goal.
As I mentioned earlier, I just aquired a ssml2 that is used and in Excellent condition I got it from a pawn shop and I have no idea what it likes to eat, so I will be doing quite a bit of experimenting
with it and my new pacnor 700 if I ever get it.
I will check out if i can find some BO's, the 325ftx just might have to take its place,price and availability being the issue.
CCChunter I have a few 325's to try. I think the HARVESTER sabots have proven their worth or being the" Best of the worst".
I think sabots in general are the devils invention for muzzleloaders,lol.
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Post by ccchunter on Aug 30, 2011 18:58:27 GMT -5
Greenhorn, I appreciate your thoughts on this.
I've picked up a box of 325's on two occasions, even walked around the store with em and then didn't get em.
I'm curious to see how your new purchase shoots.
I've found BO's online but haven't ordered any yet. I figure I got enough variables to keep me busy for now.
I AM going to try the Harvestors just as soon as I get a little range time (maybe thursday) . They very well could be the missing link.
Nate
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 19:38:30 GMT -5
Good luck with them, If you get the Bos i'm up for trading not 1 for 1 either I know they're sporty.
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Post by Richard on Aug 30, 2011 20:00:51 GMT -5
The reason for not including the BO's was the cost. Generally speaking, the Rem. 300's will give a good indicator of accuracy with a .458 (actually .4575) bullet at 1/4 the cost. On the sabots you might include the short black mmp's for the .452's and orange mmps for the .458's!
Richard
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