|
|
Post by minst7877 on Mar 9, 2009 1:50:51 GMT -5
This may not be everything that we may want but it is certainly better than what we had which was basically nothing unless you could get a medical waiver. Here is a copy of the story on the DNR's website. And a link if you want more info. www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153--210298--,00.html Contact: Mary Dettloff 517-335-3014 Agency: Natural Resources March 6, 2009 The Michigan Natural Resources Commission on Thursday approved a proposal to expand the use of crossbows for hunting in Michigan. Under the new regulations, crossbows may be used: during any season in which a firearm may be used, for both big and small game; for any hunting season in Zone 3 of southern Michigan; by anyone 50 years of age or older during the Oct. 1-Nov. 14 deer season. Included in the regulations are limits on the velocity of the crossbow. Crossbows used for hunting are restricted to no more than 350 feet per second. The regulations have a three-year sunset. Crossbow hunters will be surveyed over the next three years and regulations will then be re-evaluated by the Department of Natural Resources. Data will be collected that analyzes impact on the resource and the crossbow's potential to recruit or retain hunters. The data also will be analyzed to determine if crossbow use should be expanded further in the future. A crossbow stamp will be required in addition to hunting licenses for those using crossbows. Stamps will be available at all license retailers starting March 15. For more information on hunting opportunities in Michigan, visit the DNR's Web site at www.michigan.gov/dnr. |
|
|
|
Post by sw on Mar 9, 2009 6:44:16 GMT -5
It's a start.  The 350'/sec rule is not very restrictive. The Bowteck and Parker x-bows have been right on the advertized '/sec except for 1 Strykeforce that was 3'/sec faster. Most others I have tested were 5-7'/sec slower. I believe the only possible problems could come from one Barnett(I'd avoid it anyway) and the 2 Bowtecks as well as the futuristic PSE/AR-15. 25gs additional bolt(arrow) wt will normally slow the x-bow down 4-5'/sec. |
|
|
|
Post by carlv on Mar 11, 2009 10:56:38 GMT -5
It's a start. The 350'/sec rule is not very restrictive. The Bowteck and Parker x-bows have been right on the advertised '/sec except for 1 Strykeforce that was 3'/sec faster. Most others I have tested were 5-7'/sec slower. I believe the only possible problems could come from one Barnett(I'd avoid it anyway) and the 2 Bowtecks as well as the futuristic PSE/AR-15. 25gs additional bolt(arrow) wt will normally slow the x-bow down 4-5'/sec. I agree with you, but it's another failure of our DNR to propose meaningful and effective rules/regulations that make sense. Who cares what speed cross-bows shoot at? What difference would it make? Do you really think that "Fish Cops" will be running around with chronographs in their trucks? |
|
|
|
Post by sw on Mar 13, 2009 9:04:42 GMT -5
Who cares what speed cross-bows shoot at? What difference would it make? Do you really think that "Fish Cops" will be running around with chronographs in their trucks? It makes about the same difference a faster bow makes: some, but not as much as most people think. Usually, a faster bow has some compromise to get that speed; ie, all else equal , shooting a little slower with heavier gs/# will shoot a little sweeter. I shoot my compound at 7 1/2- 8 gs/# for that reason, and my recurve at 8 1/2g/#. However, the sweetest shooting x-bows I have shot are the Bowtecks which are the fastest commonly available commercial crossbows. Close runner-ups are the Excaliber(hi end models only) and some of the 10 pts. There should be plenty of "highly" discounted Desert Stryker x-bows available since Bowteck came out with a 35'/sec faster version(Strykeforce). These(DSs) may be found used and I know some are still on hand at retailers. . I've seen prices, new, of $599. That is a steal!!! It's advertized speed with a 425g bolt is 350'/sec. Made to order for Michigan's new rules. Putting this speed limitation on is a mistake IMO. Maybe your MLer shouldn't shoot over 2000'/sec, has to shoot a minimum 250g bullet, and have a minimum energy at 200 yds of 1000'#s. (Even though, "killing power" has been the standard of effectiveness for decades - the 45/1911 shouldn't be able to kill well, based on '#s of energy, but has set the standard of killing power). I have a lot of opinions this morning . |
|
|
|
Post by Al on Mar 26, 2009 3:22:16 GMT -5
well, I'm about to fall into the "age 50" rule (along with the zone 3) and need/want a new toy to play with this summer. The shocker for me is, the stamp is free, and they finally admit there is a deer problem around here.
[The new regulations are designed to increase hunting opportunities in Michigan, especially in Zone 3, where the white-tailed deer population remains well above the DNR's desired population goal. The new regulations also will provide hunters with more choices to continue hunting if they have been injured, have a disability or other physical limitation that affects their ability to hunt.]
|
|
|
|
Post by davewolf on Mar 26, 2009 8:13:40 GMT -5
Pa has adopted new regs as well, now allowing x-bows during the regular archery season. 300-pound max, But there is no age limit. We can already use the x-bow in all rifle seasons. The last hurdle or squabble is yet to come and that's over scopes of all things....the reg as it now stands calls for non-magnifying scopes, red dot only.
But, at their April meeting--coming up--they (the Commissioners)--at least some of them are going to try to get a resolution passed to allow scopes with magnification and cross-hairs passed.
It sure has created a firestorm here with vigorous objections by 'vertical bow hunters'.
After taking a buck this past year in a special reg county that allowed x-bows, I'm all for it! But as an outdoor writer at the moment, I'm in the minority.
Have a great day!
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by huntingmike on Mar 27, 2009 7:20:37 GMT -5
Going to a X-bow has keep me in the woods during bow season. It has not hurt the deer harvest in our state. Any one can use one. It has got my daughter hunting in bow season now and an increase of older hunters as well as younger hunters.
Yeah X-bows.
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on Mar 27, 2009 13:29:38 GMT -5
The 350'/sec rule is not well thought-out IMO. Restrictions like this don't take into account advances in performance. What if this were applied to compounds? What if velocity limitations were applied to centerfires, MLers-smokeless or traditional? I'd say the burden of proof would be on the Game Warden/Conservation officer. It would not be difficult to bring the velocity of a Strykeforce(425g bolt @ 385'/sec) down to 350'/sec by shooting a 550-560g bolt. The Stryker @ 405 would be a different matter but still could be done. If such a rule existed here, I'd get the GW or a police officer to observe the x-bow being shot thru a chronograph and sign a statement verifying the velocity. I know that living in a small rural community may make this much easier to do. Very few x-bows(1 Barnett and then only when it's not broken), 2 Bow-tecks, the Swiss x-bow/350g bolt, and the new PSE are advertized over 350'/sec anyway. This restriction won't last long.
|
|
|
|
Post by Al on Mar 29, 2009 5:59:25 GMT -5
The 350'/sec rule is not well thought-out IMO. Restrictions like this don't take into account advances in performance. What if this were applied to compounds? What if velocity limitations were applied to centerfires, MLers-smokeless or traditional? I'd say the burden of proof would be on the Game Warden/Conservation officer. It would not be difficult to bring the velocity of a Strykeforce(425g bolt @ 385'/sec) down to 350'/sec by shooting a 550-560g bolt. The Stryker @ 405 would be a different matter but still could be done. If such a rule existed here, I'd get the GW or a police officer to observe the x-bow being shot thru a chronograph and sign a statement verifying the velocity. I know that living in a small rural community may make this much easier to do. Very few x-bows(1 Barnett and then only when it's not broken), 2 Bow-tecks, the Swiss x-bow/350g bolt, and the new PSE are advertized over 350'/sec anyway. This restriction won't last long. Steve, typical of our DNR and not thinking. No doubt they are looking for extra license revenue, but at least it's a start. |
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Mar 30, 2009 8:40:29 GMT -5
Well this is stupid! I can understand a MINIMUM velocity! But what's the point of a maximum velocity? To ensure they only die just so much, and no more?  ?? Geez Louise. |
|
|
|
Post by pappy4u on Apr 27, 2009 11:17:13 GMT -5
I'm from Michigan and wondered asbout this. I talk to an officer on the phone. He said that someone took all of them to a demo that showed the PSE TAC 15 crossbow shooting over a 100 yards. They don't want that to be considered archery. I tried to ask about the people with permits and hunters that already had faster bows (were legal in gun season), where they also required only to shoot at 350 fps. and he said everyone had to follow the rule. He didn't know how it was to be inforced.
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by tpcollins on Apr 28, 2009 17:32:55 GMT -5
I live in Michigan and was interested in a x-bow when the legislation passed. But after asking numerous questions on another forum they indicated that I might be unhappy replacing my compound with one. They stated they were heavy and noisy plus they had a poorer trajectory than a standard carbon arrow shot from a compound.
The biggest turnoff was the excessive noise that limits your effective range due to deer jumping the bolt from the excessive noise. I was already to get one thinking I could go out and shoot 50-60 yards but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I think I'll wait a year and see how well these are received here.
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on Apr 28, 2009 22:03:25 GMT -5
I live in Michigan and was interested in a x-bow when the legislation passed. But after asking numerous questions on another forum they indicated that I might be unhappy replacing my compound with one. They stated they were heavy and noisy plus they had a poorer trajectory than a standard carbon arrow shot from a compound. The biggest turnoff was the excessive noise that limits your effective range due to deer jumping the bolt from the excessive noise. I was already to get one thinking I could go out and shoot 50-60 yards but that doesn't seem to be the case. I think I'll wait a year and see how well these are received here. TP Collins, TP, to put it simply, you have heard a lot of incorrect junk. I have bow hunted for 52 years and x-bow hunted some of these last 10 years. I still use compound, recurve and x-bow. The x-bow is the most effective, but I bear hunt with a compound, occasionally recurve due to the huge size of our N AR bear and wanting a possible B&C bow killed deer. The x-bow I use(Strykeforce) is very quiet, light, and extremely fast. It is way ahead of the capability of my 2 vertical bows. There are crossbows that are like the ones you mentioned the posters referenced. My advice: don't get one of those heavy, noisy x-bows. Get out and see for yourself, don't rely on these "experts". |
|
|
|
Post by tpcollins on Apr 29, 2009 7:20:08 GMT -5
Thanks SW - what's your effective shooting range with your Strykeforce?
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on Apr 29, 2009 21:41:55 GMT -5
Thanks SW - what's your effective shooting range with your Strykeforce? I do not know yet. My Parker groups below 2" @ 80 yds with the 3 blade Rage. It is appx 50'/sec slower than the Strykeforce and not as smooth,etc. I expect the Strykeforce to be 2" or less to 120 yds. I will use the 2 blade Rage with the Strykeforce. I plan to have it sighted to that distance. I do use a riflescope that has adequate ranging marks for shooting to that distance. A highly efficient rest, good shooting techniques, very well matched bolts/indexed broadheads, lazer range finder, and the belief that your x-bow has long range potential are all needed to be really efficient at long range shooting. Hours and hours of work are required to be really get everything worked out. Poor x-bows, of which there are many, as well as x-bows that are not well set up, most, will not be adequate for anything except short range work. These poorly set up and often poor x-bows are what most people have seen and experienced. IMO, the Bowteck x-bows offer the highest speed and performance. I expect Edge will really wring his out as well as I will. You'll get to see what his Stryker(405'/sec) and my Strykeforce(385'/sec) will be able to do. |
|
|
|
Post by kevin k on May 5, 2009 7:37:47 GMT -5
as for noise they are louder you need to use the right stuff like the felt on any thing hollow and good string silencers ive found the fur works the best and lasts longer and yes compound bows have a longer range twice the power stroke but xbows try to make up for it in pull weight the longer arrow is more stable also but i manage to take 4 to 5 deer a year with mine for the past 9 years and it only goes 300 fps slow by todays bows but fast compared to my recurve when i started hunting and all i need have killed a deer at 60 yards but in close 45 or less have planted them with above shoulder shots i love the spitfires never let me down have shot up to 4 deer before changeing blades i use 100 gr as they are stronger than the 125gr little shorter thanks kevin
|
|
|
|
Post by tpcollins on May 5, 2009 17:06:55 GMT -5
Thanks SW - what's your effective shooting range with your Strykeforce? I expect the Strykeforce to be 2" or less to 120 yds. SW - are you saying your Strykeforce should shoot 2" groups at 120 yards? Are you serious or just jerking my chain? |
|
|
|
Post by sw on May 5, 2009 17:59:29 GMT -5
I expect the Strykeforce to be 2" or less to 120 yds. SW - are you saying your Strykeforce should shoot 2" groups at 120 yards? Are you serious or just jerking my chain? No, but I hope and expect it to group not over 2" at 120 yds. This seems unbelievable I know but my Parker will group slightly below 2" at 80 yds and have obtained the same accuracy out of a lower grade 10-Pt (appx 280'/sec). This is off a benchrest set up and with a 3X12 Sightron scope. The Strykeforce is so much smoother, faster, etc, that I expect it to be somewhat more accurate than the Parker/10-Pt. I plan on trying 22,23 and 24" bolts as opposed to the std 20" bolts. I believe I'll end up with a 460ish grain bolt with 3 or 4" vanes(or Blazers) and 23 or 24" bolts. Yes, I expect 2" 3-shot 120 yd groups. Good or bad, I'll report. |
|
|
|
Post by tpcollins on May 6, 2009 8:21:57 GMT -5
SW - is your Strykeforce and the Desert Stryker than same crossbow or two different models? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on May 6, 2009 21:13:26 GMT -5
SW - is your Strykeforce and the Desert Stryker than same crossbow or two different models? Thanks. The SF has #190 limbs while the DS has #160, I believe. I do not know of any other differences, but there may well be other differences. To answer a previous question of yours, I shot this evening @ 60 yds in 5-7 mph variable wind. I only got 2-2 1/2" gps with the SF and 3" gps with the Parker. I had the same wt field pts but different shapes of tips. The bolts were not ideally matched, but were close. I plan to continue to shoot quite a bit over the next 2 weeks. Right now, 2" @ 120 yds just might be a "little" optimistic. I was also shooting as it was getting dark which also opens up groups. The Parker is a very good x-bow but was not up to the SF by any means in quietness, smoothness, nor accuracy. That said, if a person was going to limit himself to 60yds or less regardless of the x-bow, the SF would only be marginally more effective than the Parker. It does shoot a lot flatter and quieter but both are highly accurate @ 60 yds, and in no wind, good lighting, the Parker will give 2" 80 yd gps with 3-blade Rage(3-shot gps). I expect, hope, that the SF will better this at least some. |
|
The 350'/sec rule is not very restrictive. The Bowteck and Parker x-bows have been right on the advertized '/sec except for 1 Strykeforce that was 3'/sec faster. Most others I have tested were 5-7'/sec slower. I believe the only possible problems could come from one Barnett(I'd avoid it anyway) and the 2 Bowtecks as well as the futuristic PSE/AR-15. 25gs additional bolt(arrow) wt will normally slow the x-bow down 4-5'/sec. 
