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Post by crusader on Mar 8, 2009 19:06:33 GMT -5
Hey guys,
I acquired a 10-ML a couple months back and am in the process of working up loads. So far, all I have used is 5744. I have an opportunity to get some 4831 at a pretty good price. Is that a powder that would be worth adding to my mix of things I will be trying out? I am not sure if it is IMR or H...
Thanks!
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Post by youp50 on Mar 8, 2009 20:46:39 GMT -5
I like H4831 in my 25-06.
By nature a 25-06 has what is known as over bore capacity. It can hold more powder than can be burned in the barrel. The 25-06 tends to do well with 'slow' powders. The 4831 is a slow powder.
The nature of a muzzle loader, huge bore and no bottle neck, tends to use magnum pistol and straight wall rifle type powders most efficiently. These powders tend to be on the fast side of progressive powder burn rates.
It really is not a good application for that powder.
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Post by mshm99 on Mar 8, 2009 23:55:39 GMT -5
Youp is right,although you might be able to burn all that slow powder with a 60" barrel. Here is a burn rate chart so you can see where 4831 falls: www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.htmlmshm |
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 9, 2009 3:47:10 GMT -5
I always end up scratching my head when reading those burn charts. Is Reloder7 really faster burning than N120? Are they measuring the rate of burn in any kind of contained space? I think that these charts are useful but I don't soley depend on them. Surely we can conclude that 4831 is not suited for a 50 caliber bore. That much is evident.
Doug
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 9, 2009 8:34:26 GMT -5
I always end up scratching my head when reading those burn charts. Is Reloder7 really faster burning than N120? Are they measuring the rate of burn in any kind of contained space? I think that these charts are useful but I don't soley depend on them. Surely we can conclude that 4831 is not suited for a 50 caliber bore. That much is evident. Doug On the contrary 4831 is most defiantly suited to the 50 Caliber Bore! It was developed and was the first 20MM cannon powder! All 4831 sold prior to the mid 1980 was surplus WWII Cannon Powder ;D I would like to see you say and do agree with you if you would say "Surely we can conclude that 4831 is not suited for a 50 caliber Muzzleloading rifle bore. That much is evident " Yes I know this is a Muzzleloading forum but one recently asked questions about a Savage 110, and we did assum correctly that he was refuring to a ML.  Ken |
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2009 9:18:47 GMT -5
While it may not be a great choice, it might not be that bad, and perhaps in a duplex load may work well....though I have never even seen the powder. Hodgdon shows these loads for the Cartridge: 50-140 Sharps 425 GR. LY #515141 Hodgdon H4831 .512" 3.800" 118.0 2079 22,800 CUP 125.0 2209 26,300 CUP 515 GR. LY #515142 Hodgdon H4831 .512" 3.750" 112.0 1956 23,200 CUP 118.0 2085 27,500 CUP I do not know the grain size so it may not be suitable as a single powder if it is too small. Once upon a time, Alliant Reloder 7 was our slowest powder...times have changed  edge. |
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Post by Richard on Mar 9, 2009 12:20:22 GMT -5
H-4831sc (short cut) is my powder of choice in my 6.5 x .284 Ackley......54 gr. with a 140 gr. VLD at 2900 fps in a 28" Krieger barrel.
Richard
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 9, 2009 12:51:50 GMT -5
My mistake Screwbolts.....I was referring to the muzzleloading bores.
I didn't think that the question was regarding duplex but even so, I am amazed that such a slow burning powder could be used in a shorter than 24" barrel and still reach pressures necessary for proper ignition in a 50 caliber bore. Something isn't adding up. If this burn rate chart is anywhere near reasonable and accurate it is showing that 4831 is WAYYYYYY down the line from H322 or any other powders that we use. Maybe someone might have some explaination for how this works. I am baffled.
Doug
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 9, 2009 12:53:11 GMT -5
While it may not be a great choice, it might not be that bad, and perhaps in a duplex load may work well....though I have never even seen the powder. Hodgdon shows these loads for the Cartridge: 50-140 Sharps 425 GR. LY #515141 Hodgdon H4831 .512" 3.800" 118.0 2079 22,800 CUP 125.0 2209 26,300 CUP 515 GR. LY #515142 Hodgdon H4831 .512" 3.750" 112.0 1956 23,200 CUP 118.0 2085 27,500 CUP I do not know the grain size so it may not be suitable as a single powder if it is too small. Once upon a time, Alliant Reloder 7 was our slowest powder...times have changed edge. Edge, The only powder I am aware of with larger grain size is IMR 5010, the reason they came out with the SC (short Cut ) version was so it would go threw a measure without tearing the lever of the measure.   H4831 iis even slower than IMR 4831.  H4831 is the chosen powder for the Bad Bull ;D and they want you to use somewhere between the starting load of 110 gr and max of 140 gr. Wonder why the have a muzzle brake?  Ken |
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2009 13:58:41 GMT -5
screwbolts thanks for the info, now I know I know that they claim 3100 for the 140 grain load, does anyone know what they get for the 110 grain load? edge. |
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Post by ewc on Mar 9, 2009 13:59:03 GMT -5
I have shot a bunch of it in the .40 as a duplex. I believe I have used upwards of 92 grains (including booster) for around 2750. It was as accurate as the other nine powders have been in that gun |
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lc
Forkhorn
Posts: 72
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Post by lc on Mar 9, 2009 18:08:57 GMT -5
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 9, 2009 18:21:58 GMT -5
OOPs My mistake sorry :-)
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Post by youp50 on Mar 9, 2009 18:39:39 GMT -5
I surely wish I would have posted "at the bullet weights I am comfortable shooting."
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Post by rbinar on Mar 9, 2009 22:02:42 GMT -5
8-)H4831 is a powder you'd see used in a necked cases with a fairly heavy bullet for the caliber. You can find loads that are useful in cases from 22-250 to 460 Weatherby (and even bigger).
In 50 caliber it requires a fairly large case and heavy bullet to reach an optimum load as a single. It could be used for bullets over 400 grains and sabots for low pressure sabot disruption proof dangerous game loads. Pushing the Speer 500 grain Tungsten solid to 2300+fps should not be a problem.
If you're not hunting elephant or blue whale H4831 can be used in a duplex and will work very well. The key as with any duplex would be finding the correct proportion of booster to primary. With a powder this slow the booster would likely be a higher percentage of the total load or faster booster(s) could be used.
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 10, 2009 5:57:29 GMT -5
Well.......that is the reason that I have visited this board for years! I learn something almost every day. I would have never in a million years thought that such a slow burning powder could have any application to the Savage 10ML. Just doesn't seem that the barrel is long enough to make it work even with a 400 grain projectile. However if I were Crusader I would not consider this powder at all. The recoil of the Bad Bull would have to be tremendous pushing a 275 grain projectile with over 100 grains of powder in a 28" 45 caliber barrel. Can you imagine what a 400 grain bullet would feel like?
Doug
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 10, 2009 7:43:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't attempt it without a good Muzzle Brake. :-) The Bad Bull does have a good brake installed and if you watch the videos on that site, they make a strong point ! Do not fire this without Proper Hearing Protection even in a Hunting situation.
My experience with shooting 7 different Braked 50BMGs that point can't be expressed enough!! :-)
Ken
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Post by rbinar on Mar 11, 2009 3:57:24 GMT -5
Well.......that is the reason that I have visited this board for years! I learn something almost every day. I would have never in a million years thought that such a slow burning powder could have any application to the Savage 10ML. Just doesn't seem that the barrel is long enough to make it work even with a 400 grain projectile. However if I were Crusader I would not consider this powder at all. The recoil of the Bad Bull would have to be tremendous pushing a 275 grain projectile with over 100 grains of powder in a 28" 45 caliber barrel. Can you imagine what a 400 grain bullet would feel like? Doug I use Doug as my soap box provider at times: if he doesn't mind I'd like to use this comment to express another idea that might be handy when it comes to loads. Though I said H4831 would work in some application I did not say it was a prime choice. It should be of note that when pressures are not ideal (in this case too low) slower powders show less efficiency than faster burners. Edge mentioned loads for the 50-140 and it is a classic low pressure high volume case. The 50-140 WILL shoot a 515 grain bullet to over 2000fps with a very low pressure (less than 28,000cup) load. But if you look at the data Varget will shoot to the same pressure and speed with 20% less powder. There is little advantage in adopting a ton of slow burning powder in many applications. Among other things it increases an already immense amount of recoil. We can be happy that even with a sabot the 10ML can shoot to considerably more pressure than the 50-140. This supplies consistency and reliability as well. When choosing a dangerous game load with a heavy bullet there are better ways. For instance if your after brown bear and a 350 grain slug sounds like cheap life insurance compared to the 300 grain lead, you'd still be better off with a faster powder. H4198 with shoot the 363 grain bullet (count the sabot weight) as fast as a 313 (sabot again) grain bullet with the same amount of powder. Why? Because the extra weight of the bullet and fairly fast powder provide relative efficiency. Loads of 65 to 68 grains operate below but near sabot disruption. That means you are getting the most bullet energy with the least recoil possible for this amount of powder. After you've shot this load a few times you probably won't see the need for extra speed. But if you like bruises you can shoot a slower burning powder like H322. If you shoot H322 you are going to have to shoot more to have the same pressure. How much? In my experience you'll have about the same pressure with 15% more powder. That means the bullet will have a lot more powder to burn at the same pressure. Yes it's faster: but it kicks ooohhh does it kick. Can you see how this works with lighter weight bullets? Loads that shoot to proper pressure with varying powder charges are coincidental. The odds of having correct pressure at a random charge weight are low. This limits the speeds and energies we can shoot and expect optimum conditions. |
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Post by sw on Mar 11, 2009 7:09:12 GMT -5
:)Personally, I think H-4831 is an excellent choice. That is in a 26"-28" 40 cal barrel and as the primary powder in a duplex load. I'd start with 7-10g VV-110/70-85g H-4831 and let velocity/pwdr wt indicate pressure and final load. I think ewc is also working with this powder, as I will be, in a duplex for our 25" barrels; but I suspect it will not measure up to H-4350, which is doing great for both of us. It is way too slow for almost any application in the 50 cal barrel, IMO.
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Post by 161 on Mar 11, 2009 7:20:27 GMT -5
Crusader, sounds like you have an excellent excuse to buy a 25-06. We can't have a couple lbs. of powder just sitting around. A man should have one gun for every year of his age. Minimum
Warren
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 11, 2009 10:39:28 GMT -5
RB....I don't mind being a soap box provider if you don't mind sharing of your vast knowledge and experience. It is very unusual for anyone who makes, at least part of their living, developing rifles and load combinations to share discovery with the masses. When I see that you have entered a post here I go directly to it. Thanks for all you do for us and use me any old time. It will be me that receives the benefit for sure.
Doug
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Post by rbinar on Mar 11, 2009 18:52:04 GMT -5
RB....I don't mind being a soap box provider if you don't mind sharing of your vast knowledge and experience. It is very unusual for anyone who makes, at least part of their living, developing rifles and load combinations to share discovery with the masses. When I see that you have entered a post here I go directly to it. Thanks for all you do for us and use me any old time. It will be me that receives the benefit for sure. Doug Ok then let's ask this: I noticed some listed data for the Bad Bull. The BB is a 45 caliber rifle, do you suppose that makes a difference? |
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 12, 2009 5:37:13 GMT -5
I, for one, am not sure of the question. There would be obvious differences between .45 and .50 loads because the contained space of the powder is narrower. Can you elaborate a bit on your question?
Doug
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Post by rbinar on Mar 12, 2009 7:09:20 GMT -5
I, for one, am not sure of the question. There would be obvious differences between .45 and .50 loads because the contained space of the powder is narrower. Can you elaborate a bit on your question? Doug Doug I saw the original question as applying to the 50 caliber 10ML. When the Bad Bull was mentioned I wondered if everyone knew it was 45 caliber? If they knew I then wondered if they considered how much different a load must be for a 50 caliber rifle? Even 140 grains of H4831 is not enough for the 50 caliber with the ridiculously light weight bullets we normally shoot. The get similar pressure and performance in the 50 a much heavier bullet would be needed. Besides that since a much heavier bullet is a requirement for similar pressure a slower bullet speed (or recoil beyond survivable levels) would have to be accepted. I say all the above to give a picture that powder burning speed is everything (well almost). With a too slow powder the system is awkward. The same is true with too fast but replace awkward with awkward and dangerous. This is yet another reason not to cross calibers in a discussion unless it's raised as more than one. It is also another reason I'd like shooters to decide performance before deciding loads. That's to say if provided with "I want" to shoot this bullet (or weight of bullet), this speed, in this caliber I can provide more definite answers than I can to a question that ask what a powder does in the 10ML. |
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 12, 2009 8:10:38 GMT -5
The starter of this thread, Crusader, was asking if he should purchase this 4831 powder for his 10ML as 5744 is the only powder that he had used so far. My response to his question was that 4831 has really no effective application in the 50 caliber bore (even though I don't actually know this from experience). Although I didn't mention that I was refering to the 50 caliber bore in muzzleloaders (not cannons), the reason that I mentioned the caliber is that I have no idea what how it might perform in other calibers.
I also mentioned that Bad Bull muzzleloaders had 28" long 45 caliber barrels. Requiring 100+ grains of a faster burning powder than 4831 in a .45 might indicate that a much greater amount of powder would be required in a .50 shooting the type of projectiles that we are accustomed to shooting. Other than duplex (which is a different animal) I can see no useful application for this powder in the Savage 10ML.
When we begin speaking of other calibers.......I have no clue and depend on others like yourself who have actual experience with particular loads before I attempt to use them.
Doug
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Post by crusader on Mar 12, 2009 11:13:12 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies and advice, guys. I definitely won't use the 4831 for my Savage. I once owned a .25-06 and liked it a lot, probably shouldn't have gotten rid of it. After I move a .240 Wby I have, maybe I will look to get another .25-06 and then have a "need" for that powder!
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