Smooth vs. full form.................

[Richard]

OK, so now I have a 1 - 20 twist PN with a 28" barrel. I am looking to shoot it sabot less along with saboted shots also. I have been in PM contact with Tom Post on both his adjustable and full form die. (lengthy discussions) The cost difference ($30 or so) is not the stumbling block for me but, ...........which one would be better?
If in fact my bore is .4505" or thereabouts and I use a .452" bullet to run thru the full form die..............then I am at best, only getting about .00075" engraved per side? Not really that much? And, the die would be dedicated solely to the 1-20 barrel. On the other hand, if I get the smooth adjustable die ($30 less) I could use it on either of my PN's.
From my discussion with Tom, he did not convince me or try to convince me, that the full form would produce the ultimate in accuracy. As a matter of fact, he indicated that some who have used his smooth adjustable die have gotten very good results. He admitted that he has not received that much feed back or results on accuracy from the full form die.
Now IF, the die could take a .458 bullet down to .4505 with the groves some three to four thousandths deep, that would be another story . So, I would appreciate any comments pro/con on either die!
Thanks
Richard

[GMB54-120]

I thought he suggested the Full Form for both 458/452s and the regular for .452s only but i might be wrong.

[Dave W]

To my understanding the full form is designed to groove .458 bullets. I took it from our conversation that the FF die sizes the .458 bullet and grooves it at the same time. This is from Tom's site:

In a .45 cal. rifle for shooting sabotless bullets the rifle is provided with (1) adjustable smooth bullet sizing die and (1) full form die. One is the smooth die which is used for bullets starting at .452 diameter such as the Hornady SST or FTX or the Parker bullets. And, the other die is a full form die which is for resizing .458 dia. bullets. Common bullets full form sized are the Barnes TSX bullets from 300gr up to 500gr and the Barnes 300gr SOCOM polymer tipped, boat tailed bullet. Other .458 bullets can also be sized and used. For a .45 cal. rifle, I send both types of dies with the rifle so the customer has the ability to size any usable .452 or .458 diameter bullet.

The FF die would appear to have some major advantages in that the grooves should offer a better seal since there is solid bearing surface protruding into the grooves, not just knurls of the bearing surface. Tom also felt the FF die might lend itself to better results with lower pressure loads.

A disadvantage depending on how you look at it, most .458 bullets are heavy and heavier.

[Richard]

You could never force a .458 bullet into a piece of a barrel with .4505" land to land dimension ............Yeah, with a hydraulic press you could ;D
Richard

[Dave W]

He never mentions what type of press he is using unless I missed it.
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=8129&page=1
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=8000&page=1

[Dave W]

Lubed a .457-8 300gr Rem and ran it through my barrel drop using my reloading press. Tough, but no problem. That is with the lands cutting at full depth which I wonder is the case with a FF die?

[deadeye]

i don't have any experience w/the ff die, i would not wan't to be without the smooth die in my box,it is a great die & probably more options on bullet diameter's & the ability to adjust to the "dirty" shot bore in which i find so far 4 shots dirty is the majical # to make the final adjustment on the smooth die. i have found so far this adjustment is better around 25-35- lbs of approx seating pressure & most of the chatter is non-present with this lighter loading adjustment. interesting enough every time i tighten to bullet to bore say approx 70lbs & up accuracy is not as good even with different powder adjustments on all the bores & bullets tested so far, so my advice i would go smooth die so you can use it on multiple barrels etc.-jmho

[jray57]

+1 Deadeye expressed my feelings well

[swinglock]

OK, here are some comments to hopefully help clear some water on this thread.

One good reason there are fewer people using the .458 full form die is because most shooters don't have a barrel drop which is needed to make the sizing element.

There are a few shooters on this board which are using the .458 full form die. One of those has bought (3) full form dies. I don't think he would have three dies if he didn't like the first. Another owns a Swing-Lock rifle and has been shooting the 300 gr Barnes SOCOM bullet full formed with under 1/2 MOA results. I have other Swing-Lock customers who don't post on this board who are also using full formed .458 bullets with great results...also under 1/2 MOA results.

Would I guarantee that full formed .458 bullets are more accurate than smooth sized bullets. NO. Different rifles like different things and we all know that great accuracy has and is being obtained using smooth sized bullets. And, if you shoot smooth sized bullets, you also have the option of shooting lighter weight bullets. If you shoot full formed .458 bullets, you are stuck with 300 gr minimum weight.

Some advantages of full formed bullets are that they give almost 100% bore seal which increases efficiency which translates to slightly higher velocities at comparable pressure. Good accuracy can be obtained with even low pressure loads because the bullet is already engaged to the rifling. Because of the greatly improved seal, the bullets may also be sized to load more easily without a drop in reliability of ignition and still give great accuracy.

On the adjustable full form .458 bullet sizing die, it is primarily intended for resizing .458 dia. bullets. But, nothing says you can't try smaller .452 bullets either smooth or knurled. If it works for you then go for it.

The adjustable .452 smooth die is for resizing bullets from .452 dia. downwards. It is not for resizing .458 bullets.

Are .458 dia. bullets hard to push through the full form die. First, that depends upon which bullet you want to push through the die. Thin jacketed bullets such as the 300 gr Remington JHP or the Hornady 325 gr FTX can be pushed through the die with even a small loading press. My old Lyman Spartan press pushes those through with no real trouble. A LEE hand press even works. Also, annealed solid copper bullets such as the Barnes TSX bullets are also VERY easy to size even with a hand press. On the other hand, unannealed solid copper TSX bullets are typically hard to push through the die as are many very thick jacketed bullets such as the 500 gr Hornady interlock. For those bullets, I use a Redding Ultra Mag press or a small 2 ton arbor press.

One thing that is VERY important with regards to bullet sizing is that bullets must be lubed with a proper lube. If your lube is not adequate, bullets will be VERY hard to push through the die. I recommend Lyman Alox or Black Powder Gold or Johnson #140 ( if you can find it ). No doubt there are other good lubes as well but those stiff lubes with a bees wax or similar base are likely to work best.

Richard,

I'm not surprised you were unable to push a .458 bullet into the barrel drop as it was likely not fixtured in the same way as a Swing-Lock adjustable full form die. First the bullet needs a good fitting smooth lead-in diameter and then the rifled sizing element must have a very gradual steeply slopped cone start for the bullet to force into.

Well, if there are any further questions or concerns just let me know.

Thanks,

Tom

[Richard]

OK, I stand corrected I probably should have spent more time and throughly read Tom's web site........Sorry Tom
But, I think I now have a better idea of what I want. And, it is not the full form die since I have no intention of dealing with the heavier .458 bullets. Thanks all for the replies and thanks Tom for getting me "straightened out!"
Richard

[bigmoose]

Tom,

Can you resize Barnes 300 & 350 gr X bullets to shoot in a .45 cal. Pac-Nor barrel without annealing.
I have a one ton press.

Thanks

[rangeball]

Tom, it is my understanding Barnes anneals their bullets. Does the annealing you do further soften them or are you annealing after you size because sizing work hardens them and you're trying to bring them back to the factory softness?

[tar12]

Tom,
First let me thank you for sharing your expertise as it is always welcome. Secondly i was wondering if a .452 adjustable full form die is in the works?

[Richard]

Tar..........I think what Tom has indicated to me is that the full form die could be used to size .452 bullets IF they are knurled up larger. I can get .452 bullets up to almost .456. You would then run them thru and cut the rifling into the Knurlies. Since your land to land is .4505 (or thereabouts) your barrel drop does not have the ability to impart more than about .00075" (thats hundred thousandths) grove per side. Assuming a .452 bullet? In other words, .452 bullets do not have enough meat on them to impart any appreciable amount of rifling.
Richard

[swinglock]

Bigmoose,

Yes, any of the .458 Barnes TSX bullets can be full form sized without annealing and really my recommendation is that if your press has the force required to push the bullets through the die, then I would not anneal the bullets. Some rifles shoot best with bullets which are not annealed but you don't know until you've tried both.

Regarding the 1 ton arbor press, my guess is that it is too small both for clearance and force meaning you will probably need a 2 ton or better if TSX bullets are not annealed.

rangeball,

To answer your question, it could be that Barnes does some degree of annealing on there bullets but if so, they are far from being fully annealed.

After annealing, it is amazing how much easier the Barnes TSX bullets push through the die. The force difference is very significant making the annealed bullets probably the easiest of all bullets to resize.

To anneal bullets, there is no need to get overly technical about the process since most shooters don't have easy access to special equipment which really is not needed any way. To anneal the subject bullets, it can be done with a cheap electric hot plate or red / orange hot stove burner. Before turning the burner on, stand a number of bullets on the burner coil and turn on high. Let the bullets cook for at least 20 minutes. The bullets will turn black before they are done. Then, pick the bullets off with a pair of pliers and drop in cold water. That's all that is required. Certainly not highly technical but in my experience gets the job done very well. During the quench, most of the black oxide will flash from the surface leaving a bullet with a somewhat frosted surface. The frosted surface may actually have an advantage in that it holds sizing lube very well. I blow the hollow point cavities out with air to remove water.

Tar12,

Thanks, always happy to tell what I know if there is time.

Richard is right if I interpret your question correctly. There is no such thing as a .452 full form die but a .452 dia. bullet can be full form sized in a .458 full form die especially if it is first given a good knurling. Otherwise as Richard said, the rifling grooves will be very shallow and placement in the rifles bore trying to get proper placement could be difficult.

Tom

[tar12]

Tom,
What is the adjustment range for the .458 adjustable full form die?

[swinglock]

tar12,

The adjustable dies either smooth or full form both have enough adjustment range to cover the full range of bullets anyone might want to use. From what I have observed in .45 cal., all the different available bullets ( annealed copper thru heavy jacketed types ) can be sized within no more than a total adjustment range of .002 In. The dies will adjust downwards smaller in diameter by probably at least .004 In. without permanent set or damage which is of no concern because under normal usage, no wheres near that amount of adjustment is ever needed.

[rangeball]

Aug 4, 2011 16:24:59 GMT -5 swinglock said:

rangeball,

To answer your question, it could be that Barnes does some degree of annealing on there bullets but if so, they are far from being fully annealed.

After annealing, it is amazing how much easier the Barnes TSX bullets push through the die. The force difference is very significant making the annealed bullets probably the easiest of all bullets to resize.

To anneal bullets, there is no need to get overly technical about the process since most shooters don't have easy access to special equipment which really is not needed any way. To anneal the subject bullets, it can be done with a cheap electric hot plate or red / orange hot stove burner. Before turning the burner on, stand a number of bullets on the burner coil and turn on high. Let the bullets cook for at least 20 minutes. The bullets will turn black before they are done. Then, pick the bullets off with a pair of pliers and drop in cold water. That's all that is required. Certainly not highly technical but in my experience gets the job done very well. During the quench, most of the black oxide will flash from the surface leaving a bullet with a somewhat frosted surface. The frosted surface may actually have an advantage in that it holds sizing lube very well. I blow the hollow point cavities out with air to remove water.

Tom

Fantastic info. Thanks a bunch.

[Richard]

By the way, Thanks Tom! It was a pleasure talking to you on the phone! My check is "in the mail" for your "smooth" .45 sizing die. You should have it on Monday!
Richard

[rkrobson]

Richard, I have both. The smooth die is a must , as the 45 bullets I shoot smokeless range from .450 to .452, and I need a size of .4495-7. With the Swinglock smooth die, a few passes to determine the correct setting and your there. I have the Lee dies from .448-.452, and yes I can get there with some combo of these dies and sometimes using multiple passes, but I prefer a simple process. I have the FF die as well and feel its a must for shooting Blackhorn 209 loads. Ive had great success with FF sized .458 Barnes 300 original and Blackhorn. I've also got the Parkers to shoot by knurling them up to .457-8 and then FF sizing them, a clean barrel here has provided the best accuracy to date. I have run the Parker 325s through the FF die only and they do shoot acceptable, but the knurled then FF sized have been the best for me, Ray

[Richard]

Thanks for your response Ray. It took a little "pondering" for me to cut loose with the "do-re-me" what with our illustrous president getting our economy "FUBAR!" Plays heck on one's retirement accounts besides keeping a son afloat who has been unemployed for quite some time.
Richard

[jray57]

Richard - I for one can't wait to benefit from the extensive testing you are sure to do with Tom's die. It opened a whole new realm of muzzleloading to me! I think you may get a new attitude about shooting sabotless

[Richard]

I sure hope so ;D
Richard

[tar12]

Let me get this straight once again... ;D In using the smooth die you are not engraving the bullet per say and your friction fit is critical? What will acruing fouling do to a mans sanity? To my way of thinking this would not be as critical with the full form die? You could shoot dirty/dirtier? ;D I am trying to filter all possible scenarios as I am going to be ordering soon.

[Deleted]

Get both of them...!! I was planning on the ff for my new build,but now I realize two is better than one unless your going to shoot one specific bullet the rest of your life.
If I had no drop its a no brainer smooth form die.IMO

[swinglock]

Richard,

It was a pleasure talking with you as well.

tar12,

The smooth die does no engraving to the bullet. It only reduces a bullets diameter and leaves a smooth shank.

Bullet friction when shooting smooth bullets is more critical. If bullets do not fit the bore with sufficient friction resistance, then uniformity is affected and problems with ignition can occur. FF bullets give better ignition uniformity / reliability because they almost completely eliminate the leak path through the rifling thus producing a better seal even if the bullets load with little friction.

As for fouling build up inside the barrels bore, how that affects loading force over time depends much upon the finish inside the barrels bore as well as other factors. The nature of finish or surface inside the barrel affects how fouling builds. I have had some barrels which just always load easily even after many shots over many days. Other barrels may need to be cleaned after so many shots. The type of powder being used may also affect the nature of fouling and friction produced. Some powders residues even though seemingly cleaner burning as compared to another seem to leave the bore without any lubricity or feeling very dry where bullets go down like scratching finger nails down a chalk board. While others leave conditions more agreeable. This may also tie in with weather conditions where humidity is high or low which may affect fouling residues. It is really not all cut and dry but over time the shooter may get a feel for things and what works best.

Tom

[jray57]

Tar, Achieving that "perfect fit" is, in my opinion what the Swinglock is all about. My Starrett mic is only good for "ballpark" when it comes to the adjustability of the smooth die. I can adjust the die a few notches with out it being discernable to my mic(.ooo). It is as close to "infinitely" adjustable (within it's design parameters) as you could possibly want/need, whether you shoot clean or dirty. You will have no problem finding the fit you need without the variability that "knurling" introduces.

[tar12]

Thanks for clarifying this for me Tom.