knurling question

[rangeball]

Playing with my .45 barrel a bit. A .451 barnes will slide down with just a bit of effort.

What's the most you've been able to knurl a barnes up? I'm thinking of trying knurl as much as possible, then force down, with a mallet if necessary, using the barrel like a full form sizing die.

Anyone doing this with success?

[sw]

RB and I both found out early on with 45 cal PacNors that bullets that really loaded tightly didn't shoot accurately, at least for us. Seems like they should though.

[Deleted]

IIRC on one of DEADEYES post with his smooth die he had the best success with a bullet sized so it took very minimal pressure to go down the barrel. I hope he chimes in, but thats what I got out of it,anyway.

[deadeye]

greenhorn,you are correct w/ smooth die along w/ downsizing & knurling up i have found the very best accuracy** seating moderate pressure which is more consistent usually i predict around 30-45lbs in the .45 sabotless.

in my limited experience w.40 sabotless it appears to like even a lessor loading pressure im' guessing around 15-20lbs.

imo-i think for best accuracy-saboted loads want more loading pressure,sabotless=less, & i have found in all my experience's saboted & sabotless they all shot "dirty" much more consistent with many loads & guns some of which i do not own just developed the loads for!

[Deleted]

Deadeye thank you for clearing that up , I thought that you had gone down that road before.

[deadeye]

Jul 14, 2011 21:04:45 GMT -5 @greenhorn said:

Deadeye thank you for clearing that up , I thought that you had gone down that road before.

gh- yes,i pay special attention to each & every round i put downrange @ every range which is sometimes just out there!

[rangeball]

Now I'm confused. I thought the benefit of Tom's full form die was it engraved the rifling in the bullet? Of course this would also size the bullet to the lands, but I'm not sure what the resultant loading pressure is. I was just hoping to emulate this with knurling up and my barrel for sizing.

When you guys are getting best accuracy with mid to minimal loading pressure, how much knurling above the land spec do you think you have?

[edge]

I prefer to need a short starter to get the bullet loaded. Once started the bullet goes down easily....IMO so much so that you worry whether it will go off!

This is NOT possible with my HandiRifle ML because the breech is tighter than the muzzle, but with a good lapped barrel and with the muzzle no looser than the breech I would think that loading should not be a problem.

edge.

[rangeball]

edge, are you implying you knurl up as much as possible, then use the starter to get it moving then from there it seats easily?

[Deleted]

Rangeball,
How does the knurled one feel going down the barrel is it tight at top and eases up farther down? I would expect it to ease up some after initial engraving from the rifling and be fairly consistent
from then on. Interesting about Edges handirifle being tight at the breech. HillBill told me that most ml barrels that he has seen,"If they have any inconsistencies" have been tighter at the muzzle.
I would think that its a trial and error situation for each gun/barrel on what size is the most productive for it.

[rangeball]

greenhorn, haven't knurled any yet and have a limited supply of about 9, so want to take the best approach right off the bat

[edge]

Jul 15, 2011 9:25:34 GMT -5 rangeball said:

edge, are you implying you knurl up as much as possible, then use the starter to get it moving then from there it seats easily?

Not as much as possible since I use a knurling tool and can knurl to .460 if I tried, and then it would never go in!

IMO, if .451 is snug then I would tried it as-is.

If your results are less than stellar then I would knurl up a thou and try that.

There will become a time when it will start and wish that it did not ;D

I like a bullet that I can't start without the short starter but "just there".

It is like pornography, hard to define it but you know it when you see it.....if you don't your wife will

edge.

[rangeball]

Thanks. I'm stuck to knurling with a 12" bastard file, should have been more specific. I'll try three as is then go up from there. I can go to .452 before I run out of 3 shot groups and have to get more bullets.

[rangeball]

I just remembered I had lightly knurled the barnes when I was trying to get them to shoot saboted. Mic'd them at .4515. Just pushed one through trying to gauge seating pressure. If it's more than 5-7# I'd be suprised. Bullet stops whenever I stop pushing, will not slide in or out on it's own accord, light rifling engraving noted on the bearing surface and I can easily see daylight around the bullet when observing from the breech end. Definitely going to need some type of wad. Is there a definitive best between wool or veggie? Lubed or un-lubed best? Does either work best under a sabot?

Just pushed a .452 XTP through. Guesstimate 35# of resistance, full rifling engraving on the bearing surface.

[Deleted]

Rangeball is your barrel clean? Sounds like you have your 26 "
full form die...!!! Would the die do anything more than what you did with the xtp ... You skinned the cat your way,nice,and thank you. Show us how they shoot.

[Dave W]

I tried this using my barrel drop, had to beat them down a fouled barrel. Hope your results are better.

[wilmsmeyer]

I think beating them down the barrel would be the way to go for accuracy. The rifle RB lent me shot 2 clover leafs with knurled 250 TMZ's after being literally beat an inch at a time down the barrel.

However....This practice can not be good for optics IMO. I would think all the extra poundings would do nothing but stress that system over time. Hard whacks are different then quick inertia changes from recoil.

Rossman can probably explain those difference much better then me and comment on what this may do to a scope if loaded in such a way hundreds of times.

[Deleted]

Wilms,
After reading your posting I started thinking of a hydraulic ram to mount on the barrel to push the bullet in,but then it came to me ,how about getting a swinglock die and be done with it,lol.

[rangeball]

I don't have a drop from this barrel, and unless I'm wrong I thought you had to have a drop from your specific barrel in order to get the benefit of a full form die?

[rkrobson]

Lightly engraved copper bullets will not obturate for me and I have used the full form die to shoot the Barnes .458 Socom. They shoot ok, but nothing like either of the Parkers with a smooth die. Full form dies are different than a barrel drop, you will have a hard time getting a bullet from a barrel drop to load, been there done that. I believe Tom turns the barrel to a diameter that allows the barrel section to "flex" and an adjustable ring in the die does the tightening/loosening. For me the die is the ticket for Blackhorn, as I can knurl Parker .451 bullets to .457-8 and then resize them through the full form and get sub moa groups at 2300 to 2400 fps. I have not done pure copper .451s this way, as Iam happy with the Parkers and the Barnes .458 300 gr Orignal. You don't need a full form die shooting Parker bullets smokeless in my testing, although it does offer some options if you want to experiment with other bullets, ray

[Deleted]

Rk,
Thanks for the clarification on some things and throwing a monkey wrench in what was percieved as the road to go sabotless. I can't wait until you have your cornfield back so WE can learn more from you, You and Deadeye got the sabotless ball rolling and opened up alot of eyes with your longerange sml posts.
I realize there have been others here that shoot sabotless . But with the smooth and full-form dies along with the parker bullets,you two showed us that 500 and 600 yds was doable.
I'll just keep reading and trying to understand the intricacies,"specifics" of sabotless shooting.
Rangeball, maybe a SMOOTH form is what you need, I'm confused too. Good luck...!!!