Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2011 8:45:24 GMT -5
TG did the traces has anyone tried to see what kind of groups the reverse duplexs produces. Richard you said that you have shot them and any other load thats out there . What were your results with the reverse duplex's ? Inquiring minds would like to know. ME too,lol.
Greenhorn
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jul 13, 2011 13:01:37 GMT -5
I only shot maybe one or two, only to show that they did not produce anything dangerous. Did not shoot for accuracy. They did hit the target in the general area of the group. I would not be inclined to pursue them since they defeat the purpose of a duplex!---------------------That mainly being for the faster, easier to ignite powder to light up the slower powder.................particularly in a cold weather situation.
Richard
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Jul 13, 2011 18:10:00 GMT -5
I don't want to influence anyone positively or negatively so I will refrain from posting until someone else gives it a whirl.
|
|
|
|
Post by 10ga on Jul 13, 2011 20:20:11 GMT -5
Is this gonna be another Physics lecture/debate?? OOOHHhh! My head hurts already! LOL, Best, 10 ga
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2011 21:00:37 GMT -5
I guess I'll shoot them when I can and let everyone know what results I come up with . From the traces that TG took his time and effort to do, he showed a slower rise of pressure that would seem to me be a more SABOT friendly load but who knows,nobody right now...!!! Maybe there is a productive application of the reverse duplex maybe not . Until that path is traveled we won't know. Thank you TG for your interest in it and stepping out of the box.
10 ga no debate here just asking as simple question, I'm trying to learn and I have learned more in the past few months here about this stuff that I would have never imagined.
New techniques don't just happen they come from people that tries something different . Rangeball for one is going way out there with his bullet because he knows there has to be a better way to skin that cat and I commend him on his efforts .
Reverse duplexs might be crap but they might not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jul 14, 2011 8:51:54 GMT -5
Greenhorn.............now you get the picture! try this stuff yourself (not necessarily just your, but others  ) Find out yourself what works and what does not. People say you can not shoot good groups in hot weather?  Well I think and have shown you can. Some who profess otherwise have not taken the time to really give it a try.! Some say your barrel needs to be dirty to shoot? I have found otherwise? Is my Pac-Nor so different form theirs? Pac-Nor holds tolerances to .0002" Some just get preconceived notions that because someone else says you have to do this? That- thats what you need to do. I say give these different things a try and see for yourself what works and what does not. I just don't have the time to try every combination and give it a thorough test. The reverse duplex might prove accurate..........so try it? People like to expound on theories but few actually shoot them and prove otherwise. "If you want to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk!" Richard |
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 14, 2011 8:59:16 GMT -5
Is this gonna be another Physics lecture/debate?? OOOHHhh! My head hurts already! LOL, Best, 10 ga  OK, if you believe that the powder burns in a layered order then it would seem that a fast powder followed by a slower powder duplex works because the fast powder gets the slow powder up to pressure faster. If it truly burns this way, then a triplex with the top powder being a faster burning powder would make a lot of sense. As the bullet moves down the bore the pressure drops and a fast powder ( in moderation ) would keep the pressure up for a longer time without leaving a lot of it unburnt in the barrel. I am not convinced that it actually burns this way but the PT may provide the answers. I am probably more inclined to figure out a way to keep a mixed duplex actually mixed and avoiding the two separate containers. edge. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 9:47:59 GMT -5
Right now the temperatures are pushing 100 or higher and I have to Wo##. I don't have a cooling rod or a house to shoot out of.
When it cools down a bit, I'm going to get out and try some different loads , Richard your new load looks to be a good one.
Whats so good about you trying different things is that you use the SAME setup and just change loads. The variables are at a minimum comparing your groups with ones that you have shot in the past. I do appreciate seeing your weekly outings to the range as I'm sure others here do to. When it cools off the whole board will be out shooting their guns and sharing there efforts as well. Thanks again...!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Jul 14, 2011 12:30:12 GMT -5
Edge. Just a question. Probably a dumb one? But as I understand mixed powder is used in some other countries that don't have the availiblity of powders that we still do? If that is the case could we not gain by checking with them on their results?
Greenhorn. If you really want a cool rod I could send you one or have Roseman send you one they are relatively inexpensive. Probibly less than then the price of a pack of quality bullets
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jul 14, 2011 14:05:03 GMT -5
Edge...........I could try a group or two with mixed duplex loads to get a better feel. As I indicated, I just wanted to show that a reverse duplex was not going to blow up your rifle. It would also have to be a duplex with stick powders as the Ball duplex could cause the tiny beads to possibly obstruct the vent hole? although, one would also think that the violent primer flash would ignite and blow them out?  Jon..........The guys I spoke with from Australia use these powders in their center fire 1,000 yd. bench rifles. Don't know if they would be a source for information for our discipline . There is nothing worng with trying them. If a 10/60 duplex of N-110/H-322 works.............................Mix the two of them toghther. When mixed, they have always produced velocities lower than the duplex. You just have to be aware not use 60 gr. of the N-110 with 10 gr. of H-322 ;D. Richard |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 15:23:37 GMT -5
Jon thanks for the offer I landscape and other outdoor work and at this time I don't have the time or my .45 pacnor built. I have two .50's and a couple sub guns I can shoot but I need a cooling rod for ME or get paid to be out in this heat,its HOOOTTTT. I walked out on a fishing pier the other day to wet a hook .By the time I got to the end I was sweating "not perspiring" and nobody was PAYING me. It was a short outing to say the least.
Richard needs to fly us all in so we could shoot in his condo, I bet Tar doesn't realize he has it so nice.
My only comparison would be these big sportfishers billfishing,
the "fisherman" sit in the cabin,watch TV ,drink,and watch their lines via video camera in the water being trolled right in front of their bait. They can actually see the fish before it hits. Crazy.
Meanwhile on smaller boats these guys are in the sun all day long.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 17:06:28 GMT -5
greenhorn has a .45 cooling rod but it resides in TN along with his torn down in pieces 700 ml awaiting a tube thingy. someday he might get to see it again along with his new rod but of course it will probably be 75 degrees by then and he might not need it. meanwhile I can continue to taunt him a little every day or two......Bill
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Jul 14, 2011 20:40:38 GMT -5
Is this gonna be another Physics lecture/debate?? OOOHHhh! My head hurts already! LOL, Best, 10 ga OK, if you believe that the powder burns in a layered order then it would seem that a fast powder followed by a slower powder duplex works because the fast powder gets the slow powder up to pressure faster. If it truly burns this way, then a triplex with the top powder being a faster burning powder would make a lot of sense. As the bullet moves down the bore the pressure drops and a fast powder ( in moderation ) would keep the pressure up for a longer time without leaving a lot of it unburnt in the barrel. I am not convinced that it actually burns this way but the PT may provide the answers. I am probably more inclined to figure out a way to keep a mixed duplex actually mixed and avoiding the two separate containers.edge. If you figure this one out, please let us know. This was going to be one of my projects also but when TG posted the mixed duplex traces and they were all over the place in pressure I figured the solution was beyond me. |
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 15, 2011 7:32:25 GMT -5
If you figure this one out, please let us know. This was going to be one of my projects also but when TG posted the mixed duplex traces and they were all over the place in pressure I figured the solution was beyond me. I admit that those traces are troubling. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=7476&page=1I actually suspect sabot disruption may have been a factor but it is too hard to say what was actually going on. If you look at the normal duplex you see two traces that almost overlap exactly, peaking around 41kpsi and 2970 fps within a few fps of each other. If you look at the mixed duplex, you see traces all over 31, 26 and 40 kpsi BUT with MUCH higher velocities 3044, 2993, and 3066 respectively! Not only that but the mixed duplex had much smaller areas under the curve except for the last one. The last curve is very close to the unmixed curve in size and shape and had a velocity 100 fps higher than the regular duplex. I do not have explanations for these differences only observations edge.   |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 8:09:07 GMT -5
The mixtures in all probabilty cannot be duplicated exactly. So consistency is unobtainable. I think that point is unarguable to say the least. IMO duplexs can be duplicated and what you get is what you have to work with like it or not.
Is this assumption not correct???
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 15, 2011 8:43:09 GMT -5
I would say not correct Now for one thing I see zero reason to assume that a mixture is the same as layered. If they are not the same then the perfect ratios are probably not the same either. For instance there are some loads that work pretty well for a large portion of shooters, but I bet if these were tweaked the loads would be slightly different for each shooter. IMO to randomly take one load and mix the powder and say it does not work is much too simplistic. Several years ago I mixed some loads and got about the same accuracy as the duplex load. I am sure that tweaking would probably make either load a shooter. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=4069&page=1edge. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 10:47:39 GMT -5
The reason I say mixtures of different powders cannot be duplicated is theres no way of putting both together and they blend the same every time ,if they were two liquids I could see it,but they are not. there is going to be differences in load density along the powder column for each mixture, thats how I'm looking at it and thats how I'm interpretting the duplex/mixture traces.
How would you know when a mixture would be mixed properly,
if you over mix two different density materials,each will begin to group together.
By the way, I started this thread to explore more of the possibles of REVERSE DUPLEX's . TG's traces IMO showed consistent pressures,velocities,slower spike which I thought would be easier on sabots . I'm definitely going to try some.
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 15, 2011 11:06:04 GMT -5
OK, you may not be a good candidate for mixed duplex testing edge. PS have you explored reverse duplex posts on the Old Board? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 11:23:48 GMT -5
I'd love to if I could get the search to find it.
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 15, 2011 12:11:44 GMT -5
I'd love to if I could get the search to find it. You are right, most of it was on Ol'Green before the Old Board existed. There were a few threads in 2004 but not very helpful. edge. |
|
) Find out yourself what works and what does not. People say you can not shoot good groups in hot weather?
Well I think and have shown you can. Some who profess otherwise have not taken the time to really give it a try.! Some say your barrel needs to be dirty to shoot?
