saboted bullet ?

[Deleted]

Since the sabot is getting all of the engraving on a saboted round the bullet exits the muzzle un engraved.
Wouldn't a bullet WITH engraving be more accurate and stable?
The engraving would be like vanes on an arrow and stablize it it's entire flightpath until impact.
Richard that may be why your getting fliers, your bullets have just run out of spin put on them by the sabot and nothing else is there for stabilization.
Something to chew on..............
Greenhorn

[deadeye]

Jun 4, 2011 8:18:34 GMT -5 @greenhorn said:

Since the sabot is getting all of the engraving on a saboted round the bullet exits the muzzle un engraved.
Wouldn't a bullet WITH engraving be more accurate and stable?
The engraving would be like vanes on an arrow and stablize it it's entire flightpath until impact.
Richard that may be why your getting fliers, your bullets have just run out of spin put on them by the sabot and nothing else is there for stabilization.
Something to chew on..............
Greenhorn

when i was shooting the n120/300gn b.o which was approx 1-1.25 moa out to 325yds i put a cannelure on all bullets to ensure they were not slipping within the sabot. there was a "footprint" on every sabot checked.

not knocking plastic-but plastic is plastic especially with all the stress induced to it starting with loading it down the bore & returning at high speed exiting the bore. its amazing it gets the job done as well as it does!imo

[deadeye]

in addition to chew on, is a bullet in flight is known to create a "shockwave" even preventing rain(but not wind) from interferring w/ its accuracy flight,i would think this would apply to rifling etc-imo

now if we take a 'baseball' with raised seams & deleted these,would the old "knuckleballers" & curveballs still be able to do this with a smooth ball surface?? i suspect not,maybe possibily a less interference with a "smooth ball" just chewing"! you do have a very interesting point about sending a engraved bullet in a sabot just to see.

[Deleted]

So are you emplying that the bullets are going so fast that the shockwave would push air away from the bullet and would not allow the engraved rifling to help in stabilization ? So the fletching on an arrow trick doesn't work past mach 1.
I guess all I'm saying is that centerfire,and sabotless is more accurate in general than the saboted round. On both centerfire and sabotless rounds an engraved bullet is going downrange,with a saboted round that is not the case. Simple as that...
Like i've said before too much time on my hands.
Greenhorn

[Richard]

If that be the case Greenhorn, they why do say 3 out of 5 go true and the other two just slightly out of the group? All bullets are the same diameter and loading pressure (or perceived loading pressure) all feel the same? Why would one or two slip and not the others? Believe me, I have tested shooting knurled and un knurled many times before you were on the board, and I found no difference. Based on that, I stopped knurling? I can understand if you have a loose fitting bullet, knurling is the solution but outside of that? I have not felt knurling has helped with the bullets/sabots I am now shooting.
Until another theory comes along, I will stick with "lack of consistency" being due to bullet mis-alignment and or bullet integrity (imbalance) ...............due to variation in jacket wall thickness or slag in the lead core.
Richard

[ET]

Greenhorn

This might interest you for reading.

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/



Ed

[Deleted]

Richard when I get my pacnor I'm going to make you something that will make alignment not a problem and send it to you. Then we can start on blaming other variables for inconsistent smokeless sabot shooting. But for now ,does anybody see the point that I'm trying to make???
Greenhorn
ET i scanned over your link and will read further thank you.

[ET]

Greenhorn

The point you are expressing is understood but I feel the opposite of not engraving a bullet would give it better stabilization when a proper spin is applied to it. But that’s my current line of thinking.

Now one thing I have learned over the years is that theories, principles and applications don’t seem to always agree 100%. So in all fairness some testing needs to be done to explore concepts. Even though I was not ready to reveal this I was going to try a simple tail feather test down the road for curiosity sake.

The reason for expressing down the road is my starting PT testing has priority and am having trouble finding the time to get started. I’ve just come off a 20-day work marathon and will be starting another run Monday. This is driving me bonkers.

Now before anyone thinks or convinced I’ve gone off the deep end I will leave this picture for now.



This bullet has resisted all my previous attempts to get it to stabilize in flight so far. My options are diminishing so why not toss in another new one and see what happens?

The worst I can do is learn from it.


Ed

[Deleted]

THANK YOU,
It has a little more engraving than being pushed through a bore,but the angled cuts should give it a higher rotational value and the added drag might help it also.
If it flighs off into the wild blue yonder, then it didn't hurt to try something. Good luck with it.
Greenhorn

[Richard]

Greenhorn........I got you PM but am still a little confused as to how it will work differently than my present gizmo ;D.........And who knows if that is even the answer Like I previously mentioned, I watch Herman load his PN and uses only the plastic starter supplied by Savage and he get good groups (from time to time ;D) You will notice Herman only posts pictures when he has a good group ...That rascal! ;D We shoot a lot of groups with many many combinations of loads so of course, they do not all produce good groups (Tar). I just feel that by showing all my loads and groups, people can sort out what might good for them? ITS NOT SHOWCASING, its providing information If more people would show their results, then we could better compare what seems to work for everyone!
Richard

[Deleted]

That was just a thought at the time, but after seeing your starter why not use it to follow the bullet all the way down and seat it.The Bullet alignment variable can't be addressed better than that IMO.
Greenhorn

[Jon]

Richard. I beg to differ with you. I've seen good and bad targets from Herman. If he didn't show them he did explain them.
Jon

[Richard]

Jon..........Did Herman post any of his targets this week??? I don't want to be argumentative with you, but I shoot with him every week and know what he does and does not shoot and post? Thats all. He is just not a big poster unless he gets a really good target Now Dennis has been posting all his targets right? Boarhog was posting his targets also. Shooter and Savage Shooter post targets once in a while but thats about it? Deadeye too!
Richard

[youp50]

On engraving .


Lets look at the 12 gage foster slug. It has those cool little ridges to help induce spin and stabilize the slug... Except the slug does not spin, the slug flies like a badminton shuttle cock. And a rifled barrel firing saboted slugs is more accurate at a longer range.

I have found that the Barnes all copper bullet, for me the 250 TMZ, is much more accurate when knurled. Sometimes I think its because it may slip a bit in the sabot. Sometimes I think if it slipped it would drill the sabot. This time of year when I start to think too much I start to think about going fishing.

[Deleted]

Yooup
My only argument about the smoothbore shooting a rifled bul
let is that it doesn't impart torque on it so essentially it has no rotational value exiting the muzzle more like in a static state spin wise.
When the same bullet goes down a rifled barrel it leaves the barrel with a gyroscoping, stabilizing spin on it, the bullet is definitely not in static mode anymore so I'm saying the fins on the shuttlecock help keep the spin in motion after an initial torque has been put upon it. Kinda like things in motion stay in motion until another force stops it. Something like that .
Thanks for all the replies guys its been a pleasure.
Greenhorn

[500cadillac]

I don't think a bullet will lose very much rpm in the fraction of a second it takes to reach the target.

[Jon]

Richard. Your right. It is very educational to see the good the bad and the ugly. If I'm not mistaken he also states that the good groups were not the norm. It's good to show the great groups but few are honest enough to show you the bad.
Jon

[Deleted]

Cadillac true and I agree, the variable is How much spin has been imparted on the bullet from the sabot . With no slippage if thats even a word, the spin will be a constant. But the faster the rifling is, the more torque that has to be exerted on it.
Thus,more friction between sabot and bullet must be obtained.
Is there a max rifling twist that a saboted bullet can be shot out of consistently ? I believe there is.
Anybody on that thought?
Greenhorn

[edge]

Some folks shoot a 14 twist in their 45 calibers with regular sabots.

Here is a link where dave d. shot his 22 twist alongside my 14 twist:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=4489

edge.

[Deleted]

I wonder what was happening with the barnes on that experiment , the sst's liked the faster rifling .AND the sabots performed there job even under more rifling induced stress. The "only copper" bullet has its advantages and disadvantages.
Is the " Leadl/copper bullets" density be more suited for saboted round ?
Hhmmmm.......
Greenhorn

[deadon]

Jun 6, 2011 7:53:13 GMT -5 @greenhorn said:

Cadillac true and I agree, the variable is How much spin has been imparted on the bullet from the sabot . With no slippage if thats even a word, the spin will be a constant. But the faster the rifling is, the more torque that has to be exerted on it.
Thus,more friction between sabot and bullet must be obtained.
Is there a max rifling twist that a saboted bullet can be shot out of consistently ? I believe there is.
Anybody on that thought?
Greenhorn

One in twenty eight ,IMHO

[edge]

Jun 6, 2011 13:02:36 GMT -5 @greenhorn said:

I wonder what was happening with the barnes on that experiment

SNIP.

APPLES & ORANGES

IMO, there was not enough testing to see how different loads would work.
Not faulting the testing at all, but these were basically Go To loads for the 1:22 twist. He was just shooting loads that were known to work and not actually trying to reinvent the wheel in my rifle.
IMO, if he was keeping my rifle he would have kept tweaking until he found the right recipe. Most folks shoot what they find works well in their circumstances and rarely "force" a component to work.

I only want high BC bullets with good terminal performance. I would love to use a non corrosive sabot, but I have not found one that is accurate enough with my bullet selection.

Some folks may only want Barnes copper bullets and will need to adjust other components or they get lucky and all of their favorite components work with the Barnes....sometimes a plan just comes together and sometimes you have to keep searching

edge.

[Deleted]

In my .270 if i hit a deer with the barnes bullet it kills it period.
Game killing,razor sling'n petals then the shockwave. They are devastating no doubt ,I sure do hope that Rangball can straighten out his bullet, it will be just as good or better than a barnes IMO especially if he keeps the weight up . You have to crawl before you can walk playing the bullet making game as we all found out. It sure did look pretty though,lol. I guess there like women ,a pretty one don't always fly straight and may behave erratically and become unstable while in flight eventually keyholing,LOL.Makes you wonder how many "pretty" bullets were made into fishing weights???
Go to go to w@&$,
Greenhorn