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Post by Rifleman on May 23, 2011 23:55:41 GMT -5
What is the best rifle/scope/caliber/bullet/sabot/powder/primer combo for 500 yard shooting, and what results can be expected to be gotten consistently?
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Post by spaniel on May 24, 2011 1:23:04 GMT -5
What is the best rifle/scope/caliber/bullet/sabot/powder/primer combo for 500 yard shooting, and what results can be expected to be gotten consistently? Rifle? How would you say what is best....there are several actions commonly in use and I don't see big differences. Scope? Seems like a personal preference to me. Precision is a big help dealing with the drop, so I prefer tactical scopes to dial the elevation...but even whittling it down that far that are many great scopes. Anything repeatable and reliable. Caliber? I would say 50 is sub-optimal. One may argue a 45 or even a 40 is better. Right now, I think some of the options for the 45 like the new 325 BE give it the edge, although a 40 sabotless will shoot well to 500. Deadon's new .40 bullet may make the 40 shine sabotless one day. Sabot? Depends on the bullet. Ideally, probably none. Powder primer...depends on bullet and individual gun. The thread on the 325 BE seems to give the max I have seen out of a Savage-based gun for 500 yd performance, I'm not sure what they decided was the best powder overall. Even BP subs will get you to 500, I've done it...it also depends what you want to accomplish with the bullet when you get there. Now if you go beyond publicly available components this question becomes even more impossible to answer. Seems Edge's custom PVC sabots and .338 or .308 rifle bullets would out-perform anything being tried here. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on May 24, 2011 5:18:53 GMT -5
I'm not sure that there are enough people doing this....500 yd shooting.....to make claims on what is best. Maybe 1 or 2 guys that are doing the majority of this long range stuff. And what is being considered great? MOA? 1.5 MOA?
No matter the bullet BC, we are not even close to say a 7mm high BC bullet going 3000+ fps. When we do find the magical components that provide stability that could lead to phenominal ML accuracy we then have a few things that are hard to deal with no matter the weapon....at least for the average shooter. Trajectory is one of them if your goal is hunting....cause you will never be able to perch your deer/animal on the 500 yd line. Maybe he's at 475 or 530. A very good range finder and a scope that can be dialed precisely and repeatedly...over and over again may deal with this problem. Then the wind factor. These bullets are in the air a long time and very few people are professional wind dopers. Even the best of them can be fooled by an unanticipated gust or unseen current or swirl.
It's a great topic here to get a feel for what people really want to do at this range with a muzzle loader. If it's poking holes in a target, go for it. If it is for hunting, we could possibly spend the same amount of time (and less money) researching and practicing getting closer to a game animal....unless making that long of a shot is important to ones ego.
I've listened to a few people who desire to take shots at game only at long ranges because of the challenge and I wonder where the priorities lie here. Is it the clean harvest of an animal in the attempt to put meat in the freezer? Or is it for bragging rights at the possible expense of an animal being grazed or wounded badly.
Rifleman...I do not mean to tarnish your question here but I assume there are many people licking their lips at the answers to your question. The same crowd that may pay $7000 for that wiz bang, slam dunk, 500 yds rifle being touted in a recent video shown here on the board. Just throwing those thoughts out there for anyone/everyone as they provide their opinions
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Post by deadon on May 24, 2011 6:26:47 GMT -5
What is the best rifle/scope/caliber/bullet/sabot/powder/primer combo for 500 yard shooting, and what results can be expected to be gotten consistently? Rifle? How would you say what is best....there are several actions commonly in use and I don't see big differences. Scope? Seems like a personal preference to me. Precision is a big help dealing with the drop, so I prefer tactical scopes to dial the elevation...but even whittling it down that far that are many great scopes. Anything repeatable and reliable. Caliber? I would say 50 is sub-optimal. One may argue a 45 or even a 40 is better. Right now, I think some of the options for the 45 like the new 325 BE give it the edge, although a 40 sabotless will shoot well to 500. Deadon's new .40 bullet may make the 40 shine sabotless one day. Sabot? Depends on the bullet. Ideally, probably none. Powder primer...depends on bullet and individual gun. The thread on the 325 BE seems to give the max I have seen out of a Savage-based gun for 500 yd performance, I'm not sure what they decided was the best powder overall. Even BP subs will get you to 500, I've done it...it also depends what you want to accomplish with the bullet when you get there. Now if you go beyond publicly available components this question becomes even more impossible to answer. Seems Edge's custom PVC sabots and .338 or .308 rifle bullets would out-perform anything being tried here. I appreciate the credit but I did not have anything to do with the new 40 cal bullet . Can't wait to try it though, Rusty |
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Post by edge on May 24, 2011 7:06:49 GMT -5
.338 Allen Magnum shoots the new .818 BC 300 grain Berger bullet about 3400 fps topped with a Nightforce 5.5-22x50.
500 yards may be a bit close on deer and will probably make a mess.......walk back to 1,000 and you can still shoot woodchucks easily.....actually 1,500 yards on chucks is where the challenge starts ;D
edge.
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Post by edge on May 24, 2011 7:20:23 GMT -5
In all seriousness, I really like the idea of the Swinglock full form die for sabotless. I think that if you can go sub .45 caliber that you can get a good bullet that doesn't weigh a ton.
I think a tactical scope and some turrets from Kenton, or the BOTW scope for your drops will get you to 500 without a whole lot of trouble.
IMO, much under 45 caliber and I would build a powder chamber so your powder column is reasonable.
edge.
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Post by dans on May 24, 2011 7:35:40 GMT -5
The 45/70 Springfield shooting a 500 grain bullet at about 1200 f/s was expected to keep all its bullets inside a 27 inch bullseye at 500 yards from a machine rest. This was the military standard at that time according to my research. So our Savage muzzleloaders certainly should be able to shade that. Now how much can we consistantly better it? Does any one know what kind of consistant groups that $7000 shooting system shoots at 500 yards, if consistant means the smallest group that EVERY shot fired goes into?
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Post by edge on May 24, 2011 7:55:29 GMT -5
That is the other thread, but MOA so just over 5" @ 500 yards.
edge.
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Post by spaniel on May 24, 2011 8:36:48 GMT -5
[quote author=deadon board=smokeless thread=8300 post=79964 time=1306236407I appreciate the credit but I did not have anything to do with the new 40 cal bullet . Can't wait to try it though, Rusty[/quote]
Apologies for the error -- especially to rangeball.
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Post by spaniel on May 24, 2011 8:48:39 GMT -5
The 45/70 Springfield shooting a 500 grain bullet at about 1200 f/s was expected to keep all its bullets inside a 27 inch bullseye at 500 yards from a machine rest. This was the military standard at that time according to my research. So our Savage muzzleloaders certainly should be able to shade that. Now how much can we consistantly better it? Does any one know what kind of consistant groups that $7000 shooting system shoots at 500 yards, if consistant means the smallest group that EVERY shot fired goes into? My one attempt at 500 yards...1950 fps with the 325 FTX out of an Omega shooting sub, four in 8.5". There was way more crosswind than I wanted to shoot in but I just wanted to confirm the drop estimated based off 400yd shooting and only had one day to try, so I threw 4 downrange on the same wind estimate hoping I got one on the paper to give me a ballpark on the drop. Needless to say when I saw the results I wished I'd tried a bit harder. ;D Based off this I would say a PacNor or similar setup should be a cakewalk at 500yards. My range only goes to 400, this target was shot on a special opportunity, so I have not gotten to try it myself yet. I have a much better scope on my Savage than the Omega I shot at 500 too. The energy, velocity and drop with the 200SST out of my Savage at 2770 fps are all superior at 500 yards to what my Omega would do at 400 yards with the same bullet, and I shot that to 400 yards all the time. This is why I say it's the shooter more to the gun. It's a lot more about knowing the ballistics, shooting in the wind (or knowing when NOT to shoot), and sight picture/trigger control than it is the gun -- if you can shoot 1 MOA at 200-300 yds and shoot one of the higher BC bullets there should be no issues just getting it there with reasonable accuracy.  |
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Post by edge on May 24, 2011 9:17:19 GMT -5
I would be shocked if most of the PacNor shooters are averaging 1 MOA or better! IMO, if they were the board would be flooded with sub MOA targets...and they are not too common from what I have seen! Perhaps as more folks get the full form dies for sabotless shooting with its near perfect bullet alignment, but for now I suspect that 1 1/2 is about what most can expect with some better and some worse. Richard is the only person that shows all of his targets. True he does experiment A LOT  but nobody can fault his shooting ability ( even with a bent recoil lug ;D ;D ;D ). edge. |
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Post by bigmoose on May 24, 2011 9:39:52 GMT -5
I enjoy reading about 500 yard shooting [target that is]
I watch long range game shooting on TV 740 yards Elk shot, interesting.
I know there is a bunch of folks on this site, that have taken Moose, and maybe Brownie's too
Ask your guide about taken one of them at 500 yards, even after you prove you can do it on paper.
This first time I told my Guide I could hit a dime consistinly at 100 yards from the bench, , He said no benching on the tundra, and if there were, does that mean, you would only shot them in the eye. After a second or so he said, I guess that really means, you won't miss an an animal that stands six or seven feet tall at the shoulder at 100 yards.
We both had a good laugh. I had a shot dime in my pocket, but that were it stayed.
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Post by mountainam on May 24, 2011 12:14:17 GMT -5
The only possible bad thing that I can see using the 500yd hype is the Traditionalists (butt-flappers) whining and drawing attention to the weapon to try to get it banned for ML seasons. The biggest problem that high performance muzzle loading faces is from the bunch that enjoys handicapping themselves. That in itself is fine as long as it doesn't apply to me. I hold absolutely no contempt for a Company of engineers that put the thought and time into a project that is top shelf and DARE to want compensated for their time, materials and effort. Who knows, the market may not support a custom ML at $5000 and they may have to cheapen the design to include a barrel nut so they can get the delivery guy to install the barrel instead of a skilled gunsmith and get the price down. There are a lot of very talented minds on this site that GIVE AWAY their talent, skills and knowledge for the betterment of the cause. Perhaps we've all been spoiled and expect the same from everyone. I drive a 25yr old F250 , but I'd never begrudge anyone for wanting a new one for $40,000+ with all the amenities that they desired. I just wish I could afford one too.
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Post by bigmoose on May 24, 2011 12:38:02 GMT -5
Once again, let me make my position clear, my opinions apply to me and me alone.
Want to shoot 500, a 1000 yards, that is your affair.
Want to hunt ground hogs with a 700 Nitro Express, more power to you.
Thomas Jefferson is my hero, remember he said on another topic.
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say.............................................................
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Post by deadeye on May 24, 2011 15:18:45 GMT -5
for info only-from my testing the 325be thread i approx averaged .8-.9 moa through-out the whole testing period out to 665yds. there will be some mildot holds(early-on) that may be unclear but power adjustments per magnification & scope proofing were getting tested also along with getting the feel how this bullet was on deflection..
* i had only one flier @ 463yds but noted the bore coppered up after approx 75 dirty shots*
note-my groups were shot from atv's,top of cab of pick-up & wind read to the best of my ability.
i am confident with my set-up which approx cost $2,000(total) i could hit a gong out to 600yds & probably a much smaller gong than the they are using which appears to look like 12'' from the video- jmho
next year when returning to farmfields i am confident we can trim this moa down with a solid bench & no load work going on. the 4198/3031-15/67///327be was the horse
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 15:27:54 GMT -5
I'm with you mountainam, these mls are "primitive" weapons and once they are shown that they are not, then there is no going back statutory wise. I'm for tightening 100 and 200 yd groups to as least as possible, the technology is there for the longer shots,
But as far as hunting wise IMO we need to stay on the downlow
which means "Let's keep it to ourselves". Otherwise we'll just be a bunch of benchrest muzzleloader shooters during hunting season or restricted to subs. I'm in florida and its that way here already. I am rebel hunting when I take my savage in the florida woods ,I also hunt in alabama where there are no restrictions. Also here in florida, Blackhorn is not "legal" either because of it's nitrocellulose base. The way things are these days you never now what's next. IMHO it's something to think about ...!!!.
The swinglock customs and Mundens seem to be the true long range mls out there for the people that can afford them and I believe they deserve respect for what they are . Imo gunwerks has a long row to hoe to be compared with them.
Just my thoughts, you guys ought to know by now I'm all for new developments that are made here,
Greenhorn
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Post by Richard on May 24, 2011 16:19:46 GMT -5
Edge............thanks for you keen observations  .............."bent recoil lug aside ;D" Being an accomplished 1,000 and 600 yard benchrest shooter.........(NOTE, I did not say the best, just accomplished) for over ten years now, I know, first hand, what it takes to shoot small at those distances. I shoot equipment that far exceeds the best of the best ML's available to the public.........Yes, including Swinglocks and Bad Bulls or whatever. The thing is, the best ML's do not have access to the quality bullets with BC's that can get near what the CF rifles have. Edge made a good example of that. I have seen .408 Cheytec's with machined 400 gr. bullets that cost $2/pop and even they, cannot hit that 12" gong every time at what ever distance? I watched Bill Shehane, one of the 1,000 yard GU-RU's shoot one at 1680 yrds up in Ohio. He was actually beat by Dave Tooley, a accuracy gunsmith from down my way and a friend, using his .338 BooBoo. (a wildcat 8mm mag.) The 338 had a 21" five shot group and the Cheytec only got four on the target. Wind is the big factor in long distance shooting..........too many unpredictable conditions that spoil good groups. Scopes and rests used to shoot long distances are not readily available to the deer hunter either. Oh, I am sure they are to a very few who are actively pursuing these long range shots but not to the everyday deer hunter. But even then, we are back to wind conditions. Who has wind flags set up where they encounter deer? ;D With all the shots I have put down range with the Savage/PN ML, the "EVERYDAY" hunter is going to be pretty much restricted to 300 yards and under to "somewhat" reliably take a deer on the first shot. REMEMBER.....................These long range sniper kills at the ranges you see on the internet, are not ONE SHOT KILLS! They are working in conjunction with a spotter/scout who is feeding information on each shot back to the shooter who is constantly adjusting his scope or using his reticle to correct for the misses. I am not saying these long shots cannot be made, but reliably?    Richard |
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Post by deadeye on May 24, 2011 19:05:12 GMT -5
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Post by dannoboone on May 24, 2011 22:08:46 GMT -5
What is the best rifle/scope/caliber/bullet/sabot/powder/primer combo for 500 yard shooting, and what results can be expected to be gotten consistently? I watched a video that Richard Franklin of Richard's Custom Rifles made in which he and some of his friends were shooting woodchucks out to and including 500yds with his custom muzzle loaders. Made from BAT actions, Krieger barrels and his own beautifully made stocks, they were a sight to behold. Seems like they were shooting H4350 behind 250gr Parker BE's sabotless. Cut down .473 head cases with CF primers were used. I don't recall what type breech plug was used. One of those rifles with something like a NightForce scope would be the cat's meow for someone into that. |
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Post by Rifleman on May 26, 2011 4:13:36 GMT -5
A lot of speculation, but no real answer to the question. Seems 500 with a MZ is a little tougher then some think. Perhaps if it was being done some real concrete answers would be forthcoming.
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Post by Dave W on May 26, 2011 4:26:55 GMT -5
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Post by spaniel on May 26, 2011 20:25:25 GMT -5
A lot of speculation, but no real answer to the question. Seems 500 with a MZ is a little tougher then some think. Perhaps if it was being done some real concrete answers would be forthcoming. I don't think the problem is the replies, it's asking for a concrete answer. Several people have shot 500 yards, results have been pretty decent. The example I posted with sub powder is way harder than doing it with smokeless...nearly twice the drop and drift...probably half or more of the target shooting I have done with smokeless is at 300+ yards and 25% at 400 yards as that is what I can get on my home range. I don't get out the calipers but my groups...it's just a fun hobby to me... have mostly been right around MOA, give or take an inch, with my go-to load at that distance. This is like Ford vs Chevy. There is no right answer, it depends on what is important to you and what you expect to acheive. |
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Post by Rifleman on May 28, 2011 7:40:59 GMT -5
The only thing I expected to achieve, and I think I did achieve it was to see who was doing what with what. Not many are shooting 500 and it no doubt can be done, but I do believe that if more tried it then there would be more development load and accuracy developments found. I don't think I saw any results from the 45 cal and under crowd, although I think Herman has done some of this in the past. No doubt Edge has some bullets that are high enough BC to make it easier with his custom sabots.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 9:21:20 GMT -5
Rflman
RkRobson was shooting his.45 600 yards. on Dave W.'s answer.
With all the new builds with drops being saved and used for dies there is going to be more long range mling going on sabotless plus the introduction of rangeball's new bullet the possibilities of 500+++yrds accuracy to be obtained. greenhorn
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Post by dave d. on May 28, 2011 9:40:10 GMT -5
:)dwight i would have done it along time ago but i just dont have access or land to shoot that far i wish i did. i dont believe that sabots cant do it till i see it myself.if this new .40 bullet works out it just might be the ticket.
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Post by Rifleman on May 28, 2011 11:44:02 GMT -5
GREENHORN, You are right, Rk did have some very impressive results, I saw it a awhile back and forgot to mention that. He is a shooter no doubt.
DaveD, Buddy I have no doubt you could pull it off if you had some access. Of course you still have the invite out here to Indiana, I can put you up while you work out the long range stuff. I know that is not realistic, but really Dave surely something will open up close to home where you can get some distance.
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Post by dannoboone on May 28, 2011 12:33:53 GMT -5
A lot of us have DaveD's problem. The range I shoot at has a 200yd
limit. Even if the neighbor's did not complain, and I built an earth
berm on my property the limit would be 300yds. It is VERY difficult
to find anywhere to shoot long range for most of us.
As RB stated, we're shooting bullets with the BC of flying bricks.
Perhaps that is about to change, and if so, more will be willing to
attempt long range shooting IF they can find ranges to do so. Up
to now, the Parkers have been the best thing going, but better
BC is needed, not so much for drop, but X-wind problems.
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but nobody can fault his shooting ability ( even with a bent recoil lug ;D ;D ;D ).
.............."bent recoil lug aside ;D"
;D
