|
|
Post by Richard on May 3, 2011 16:13:14 GMT -5
He is getting better Tar...............Since I got him shooting benchrest, I think he sees the value of shooting more than three shots............Its just that some times, you have three good ones going and don't want to mess the "picture" up ;D Today started out at 64* with no wind at 7:00 a.m. and ended up by howling at 10:00. We had several wind flags and ribbons hanging in order to attempt to shoot the "condition!" One was going one way and another further out, another way??? I started the day off shooting one of our members rifle I bedded in a new (Boyds's or Richard's) laminate stock about three months ago..................Friday the New PN fluted 25" barrel arrived from Penny and it came with me to the range. It took two shots to break the clay at 100 yards and then the attached group was shot. One of five out with the best four in 3/4". I hope Steve is happy. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Group #1... 60 gr. H-4198 Av. vel. for four shots 2475 fps with a big ES? NOTE how the three fastest shots printed together and closer to the dot? The slower shots are more to the right...........This is a pattern I have been following for quite a few weeks and you will notice on many of the following targets. Also NOTE, my scope setting was not touched the entire session. Group #2....60 gr. of N-120 (Tar's favorite) Velocity up but ES is very large??? Note how the fastest shot is to the far left? Group #3 A duplex where I dropped the N-120 to 50 grains but added 10 grains of N-110 as a booster............still 60 gr. total. The velocity went up and the group tightened up. Note how these faster shots are printing more to the left of the first two? And, the fastest shot (#5) was the one out of the group and even further left! #4 was the same load as above shot at 200 yards. Pretty low ES for the first four shots and then #5?  ? #5 Tried a new triplex substituting Re-7 for the middle powder (or N-120). This caused the velocity to drop some from previous identical loads using N-120. It seemed to groups as well. #6 Same load at 200 yards (when the wind was howling) Note the two fastest shots printed to the left of the others. When it is windy, it is hard to corroborate this theory but under calm conditions, the faster the shots? The further to the left they seem to print..........Generally! Comments? Richard   |
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on May 3, 2011 18:40:26 GMT -5
While the N-120 group has the largest ES, it is the second best group posted. Every group I have shot with the N-120 has been @ 1in or less...although they are 3 shot groups.I also noticed that my avg. velocities are 100 fps higher than yours.The ES has been higher than I would like but very consistant and reapeatable accuracy.Explain that? Way back in the day when I would shoot more than 3 shots per group they would always open past the 1in mark.I attributed this to heat and nothing else and considered it the nature of the beast and still do if all else is equal and consistant and the accuracy is repeatable along with a low or repeatable ES.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 3, 2011 21:49:43 GMT -5
I would respectfully disagree that the first three shots are always better? I have had many groups where shots 2,3 & 4 were better or 3, 4 & 5? To me it appears that the best shots (group wise) are more attributed to the velocities being close together! Just a "for instance" and this is only one of many...........look at group #1...............shots 5, 4 & 1 are the fastest of the five and they are perfectly horizontal and grouped pretty much together. Shot #5 which was THE fastest, printed slightly out of the group and just to the left. Which goes along with my theory that the faster shots (generally) move to the left. In my case, I try to keep all shots coming out of a barrel that is fairly close to the same temperature. I can understand if you fire a five shot group a quick as you can and use no cooling procedure, that your first three shots might be better  In my case, I am pretty much going from one five shot group to the next and actually not taking a break..........simply changing components.........so shot #1 of my second group is more like shot six? Group #3..........shots 1, 3 & 4 form the smallest group........shot #5 which was the fastest again printed just to the left. All this stuff is not 100% carved in stone.........but for me, it does follow a continuing trend. There is always going to be some flies in the ointment in the form of........wind, mirage, bullet imbalance, POA not being dead on etc. In general, if I can figure out how to get my ES as small as possible, I have a better shot at a "bug hole" group. So, my intent is to keep trying various combinations of single, duplex and triplex loads along with various bullets in an attempt to achieve that goal. The challenge is my form of enjoyment ;D And yes, I know you can kill all the deer you like with "60 gr. of N-120, a blue Harvester sabot and a 195 Barnes" But that is boring if you shoot every week  Richard |
|
|
|
Post by skennedy on May 4, 2011 10:50:14 GMT -5
Steve is very happy. Richard I can't thank you enough for doing this work for me and then testing the gun. I am still learning every day and an sure I will continue to have more questions. I only now hope I can match your result. Thanks Again Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 4, 2011 16:05:09 GMT -5
Steve............you are quite welcome. Hope you will be putting some good glass on that beautiful rig!
Richard
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 16:22:07 GMT -5
Richard,
If Steve wouldn't mind could you show us a couple pic's of his rig?
Everyone loves to see a beautiful gun...!!!
Thanks and as always great shooting!!!,
Greenhorn
|
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on May 4, 2011 18:11:21 GMT -5
Steve is very happy. Richard I can't thank you enough for doing this work for me and then testing the gun. I am still learning every day and an sure I will continue to have more questions. I only now hope I can match your result. Thanks Again Steve You will not have any problems repeating Richards results as the Pac-Nor barrel makes everyone look good! |
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on May 4, 2011 18:33:28 GMT -5
Richard,
If the first 3 shots are not the best then something needs to be adjusted! This is wether it is a single,duplex or whatever.Your N-120 group size for the first 3 are typical of my 3 shot groups.How can that kind of consistancy and accuracy be wrong? While 5 shot groups may be useful for centerfires I do not think it is nearly as conclusive for a saboted bullet because of the inherent variables that can not be controlled nearly as well as centerfire cartridge. Just trying to understand the method to your madness....
|
|
|
|
Post by skennedy on May 4, 2011 20:46:20 GMT -5
Richard I'm putting a leupold VX-L 3.5-10x50 on it. And I don't mind if you post pictures.
|
|
|
|
Post by skennedy on May 4, 2011 20:52:40 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 4, 2011 21:31:01 GMT -5
Well, that is the picture I had sent Steve and would have posted. If I knew I was going to post it on the forum I would have made the back round look "more purty ;D" Tar...........The method in my madness or whatever you want to call it is just this: The more shots you present, the more credibility the load has...That's all! You like to say the first three shots are the best??? Dang! With all I shoot, I know that is not the fact! In fact I like seeing ten shots more  When I see a group with multiple (more than three) shots then, in my mind, at least, I know that at any time, I can be confident that it will put a shot in that size group. A few weeks back I had a three shot group that measured .054" CTC. Herman and Bill said: "Don't mess it up!" So, I reluctantly went to an adjoining target and fired the fourth shot..............  Sure enough, it went out by just about an inch  ...........So you say: See, I told you so, the barrel got warm and that's why you missed? NO sir! I fired the fifth shot and it went right back to touching the three shot group to open it up to .447". If I was at a match, I would get credit for a 1.027 group...........Not a .054" group. That load is a one inch load.........at least on that day. And, by the way, it was one of those dreaded TRIPLEX loads! Do you think that a Sniper, who needs to put a bullet in a hostage takers eyeball at 100 yards would feel comfortable with that load? I wouldn't! Now would I be comfortable taking out a perp that gave me just a head shot? You bet I would. And now we come to deer hunters................three shot groups are more than sufficient. I just happened to be more interested in the extreme accuracy of a load for paper punching only. Of course, it does not hurt to have you hunting loads refined as much as possible for those occasional very long range shots ;D Just humor an "older" benchrest shooter trying to put his ML in the same category! Remember, it is the benchrest shooter who has brought most all of the accuracy enhancements to todays modern rifles. Richard |
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on May 5, 2011 6:08:08 GMT -5
Richard I understand what you are saying and what you are trying to acomplish with a 5 shot group...why cant the same be said for a 3 shot group? or a 10 shot group for that matter if that is what your after. I have never said the first 3 shots are the best..PERIOD. BUT..once I have a gun fouled and dialed in those first 3 will be right there where I want them and it will be repeatable for a period of time or I will be looking for a different load!
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 5, 2011 12:28:50 GMT -5
Tar........simply because three shots is just too small a sample. If that was the case, benchrest matches would be contested simply by firing a three shot group and may the best group win. But no, in short range benchrest (100, 200 and 300 yards) you have to fire FIVE -- FIVE shot groups which they add together and divide by FIVE to obtain your "agg" or aggregate. Some matches give credit for the "best" group of the match but thats it. When shooters refer to their guns accuracy they say............""My gun is aggin' ._ _ _" Its consistency. Now "IF" you could go out on any day of the week in decent conditions and shoot a 1/2" or 3/4" or 1" group EVERY time? Then I could be satisfied with that. But you know as well as I that it will not happen with one of THESE muzzleloaders...........Maybe a Bad Bull or Swinglock but not the variety we shoot with the sabots and pistol bullets we commonly use................However, that is my goal by playing around with the various bullets and loads I just may stumble on a good one ;D And like I indicated previously, we need fresh "stuff" to keep the interest in our board and promote healthy discussions Richard |
|
|
|
Post by edge on May 5, 2011 13:06:53 GMT -5
Personally I see both as valid as would other versions! For the competition shooter many involve the shortest time too but that may be tough on the sabot.
Single shots fired over an extended time probably is at least as valid as 3 or 5 shot groups for most ML hunters. Some folks like to fiddle with their scopes so you certainly need to track that over time....but that goes for however many shots folks take.
edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 20:29:37 GMT -5
I missed a little bit, had to w--k ,
Richard ,Steve's gun is a beauty ,he really likes the work you've done for him.
Richard are you weighing your bullets ? In the 240xtps and the 250 sst's , I have seen more than 1 gn. differance higher and lower than advertised weight on the batches I've weighed.
Maybe if Rangeball can get his bullet built you can shoot moa 10 shot groups,lol.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 5, 2011 21:11:03 GMT -5
Greenhorn.............This is of course, MY opinion: weighting these pistol bullets and finding a tenth or two of a grain difference is a total wast of time. Even in long range benchrest weighting is not a common practice. First of all benchrest quality bullets will be less than a tenth of a grain.......If that! They are more interested in having the bearing surface being the same length.........measuring from the ojive to the base............Having the meplats all the same........jacket wall thickness the same (hence custom bullets or at least match quality)...........Making sure the run out on the bullet in a loaded round is .001" or less. Weighting cartridge cases is more important.........particularly if you are using brass from companies like RemChester and the like! The preferred brass of course is Lapua. Weight of brass determines interior volume. The heavier the case? The higher the pressure with the same amount of powder. The reason? Once a case is sized on the exterior, the extra brass get squeezed to the inside.........hence a smaller boiler room. Less space? Higher pressure. Higher pressure? Induced vertical stringing which is very noticeable at 600 and 1,000 yards. In our ML's, there are too many other variables that cause us real grief other than a tenth of a grain difference in weight for a less than benchrest quality bullet. My gun will shoot a 195 Barnes to the same POI as a 200 gr. XTP! Richard |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 8:43:33 GMT -5
I agree,but I'm seeing up to a 2grain difference, is that pushing the envelope or what would you consider max grain difference in a bullet for mling. I was just trying to level my playing field.
I will try some matched bullet groups compared to unmatched to see if I can tell a difference in my.50.
Also, IMO there are many who ASSUME that a 250sst weighs 250gns when it does not.
I'm sure when weighing loads that others pay much detail in matching weights, I was just expanding that idea since there are so many variables to contend with.
It can't hurt , i've wasted more time doing stupider things , I enjoy playing with my new scale...!!!
Thanks for your opinion , i do respect it.
Greenhorn
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 6, 2011 18:11:17 GMT -5
Greenhorn..............there are many things we do that probably don't matter however, if in our mind, we are more comfortable doing them? Then go ahead and do them. It definitely can not hurt. On the other hand, if you want to prove out the theory, then do what you said. Better still, take two identical containers with you to the range. In one put your weighted bullets and the random bullets in another. Mark only the bottom of the containers.........then have someone take the containers and return them in such a manner that you do not know which is which. Shoot a few groups from both. When done, examine the bottom of the box to see which is which. I would do this with a load you know gives you consistently good results.
Richard
|
|
?
In my case, I am pretty much going from one five shot group to the next and actually not taking a break..........simply changing components.........so shot #1 of my second group is more like shot six?
When I see a group with multiple (more than three) shots then, in my mind, at least, I know that at any time, I can be confident that it will put a shot in that size group. A few weeks back I had a three shot group that measured .054" CTC. Herman and Bill said: "Don't mess it up!" So, I reluctantly went to an adjoining target and fired the fourth shot.............. 
Sure enough, it went out by just about an inch 
...........So you say: See, I told you so, the barrel got warm and that's why you missed? NO sir! I fired the fifth shot and it went right back to touching the three shot group to open it up to .447". If I was at a match, I would get credit for a 1.027 group...........Not a .054" group. That load is a one inch load.........at least on that day. And, by the way, it was one of those dreaded TRIPLEX loads! 