45 Full Form sizing follow up

[rkrobson]

I spent the last two weeks tweaking the full form sizing with .458 bullets, .458 Barnes Original 300 grain and .458 Hornady 325 grain FTX. The Barnes size with half the pressure it takes to size the FTX, and both require separate die settings. I finally got smart and pulled the breech plug and arrived at the largest diameter bullet I could start and seat with probably 50 pounds of pressure, in a fouled barrel. With smokeless the size is not as critical as with BH 209. All smokeless shoot very well, with groups at less than 1". I won't spend a lot of time here, as I'll be shooting the Parker 325 when I can shoot smokeless. Now for BH 209. Before, I was having very large velocity variations, 100+fps with BH. When I shot the largest sized bullets the fps tightened up to 50 fps es, and groups were 1.25"-1.5" Knowing what the gun was capable of, I tried every wad available, including 1/8" cardboard. Nothing helped. I then decided to clean between shots, bingo! Velocities were within 20 fps for both bullets and groups went to 1". I then came home and tried a larger diameter for a clean barrel and arrived at one more hash mark larger on the Swinglock FF die for both bullets. I went out and shot the attached group with the Barnes original, group for the FTX was 1". I feel this thread is about full form sizing as much as anything and thats why Iam posting the Blackhorn information. My next test will be to knurl the Parker 327 BE to .457 or so, run them through the Full Form die and hope I can shoot them with BH. One quick note, Iam shooting the Barnes at 2440 fps and the FTX at fps 2325 with BH, Ray

[deadeye]

the full-form die engraves the bullet & has adjustments?

if you have time please post a couple pic's of the full-form die & maybe a couple of bullets sized for viewing. keep up the great work! /thx/jeff

edit
www.swinglock.net/SizingDies.html

[Jon]

I'm watching with great interest I have a ful form die for the gun I'm building now. I'm a ways away from getting to shoot it so I'm looking for any input. Thanks in advance.
Jon

[edge]

Very cool. Can't wait to see how good you can get this.
Crazy good from the start

edge.

[tar12]

Can not wait to see your 300 yd and beyond results!

[GMB54-120]

rkrobson

Thank you for post BH209 sabotless results. Ive been tinkering with it too but with lighter bullets due to the slower twist in my Elite 45. Hopefully i can start testing again after i get a few other projects finished. I may have a 1-20 to try it out in too.

I have to admit, those fps number are very impressive with such a heavy bullet. Ive been wondering if BH209 needs a little kick in the pants with a few grains of T7 or real BP as a booster shooting sabotless.

On Swinglocks site he was getting some decent numbers with a 350gr bullet and 120gr charges, Nearly 2000fps is pretty impressive performance for a 350gr and 120gr of BH209 and at under 26K psi too.

[jims]

Right off the bat you are dialed in.

[rkrobson]

"Right off the bat you are dialed in."

Jims, this is after 90 rounds of full form sized bullets, I just cut to the chase, Ray

[Jon]

If the time ever comes where someone shoots a full form bullet with a pressure trace. I'd like to see what it does to the second spike if anything at all.
Jon

[deadeye]

Apr 18, 2011 14:17:40 GMT -5 rkrobson said:

"Right off the bat you are dialed in."

Jims, this is after 90 rounds of full form sized bullets, I just cut to the chase, Ray

lol- i can relate! not to mix into the thread but possibly relating-i noticed on the " smooth die w/friends gun w r7-76.0/327be which he put the first 4 within a nickel@100yds cutting right to the chase ;D ;D ;D

*a adjustment of approx 1-1/2 mark on die put the proper seating pressure which was approx 5lbs(prior) to approx 40lbs- a fps reading of approx 50fps average higher-he was the shooter & the groups went from .5 to 1.0moa " but his shoulder was bruised & hurting after just 9 shots! i suspect the "full-form" will be somewhat the same on finding the sweet-spot & fps/es readings per bullet/bore

[rkrobson]

Right on Deadeye, don't ever wonder about your comments on any thread I statred, I actually appreciate all the input. Its 40+ mph winds here today, so I put on my open sights and went out mainly to check elevation with this gun, shot a 1" and a .5" group with open peep sights. Its nice to have predictability when doing this stuff. I use a Sako rear peep sight(modified) and a Lyman Globe with a lee Shaver cross hair insert up front. Ray

[spoonover]

Ray, please show some pictures of the sights? That sounds very nice, I have always shot better with aperture sights. Townsend Whelen: Mister Rifleman claims they made buck horn sights obsolete way back in the 1700's, why the rifle manufactures have not made aperture sights standard is a mystery?

[rkrobson]

These are Sako rifle peep sights that mount on a dovetail, I had a gunsmith create a dovetail base out of a leupold PRW base. These have an offset peep hole that rotates 180 degress, offering two point of impacts. I drilled the hole out larger downward creating a larger disparity when rotated. I have 150 yd and 250 yd zero with these 45s. lee Shaver turned Lyman 17A globe front sight dovetail bases to fit a .340 marble front ramp. A lot of info here, but ask anything. FYI the front sight is .075 lower than the rear sight with a 32" sight radius. A lot of elements play into open sight shooting with the sight picture being most impotant for me to shoot accurately. Ray

[rkrobson]

Days like today I wish Rick Bibby was around, he did substantial testing for me to shoot sabotless with BP substitutes, and recommended against it as obturation was difficult. Then along came BH 209 and Full Form sizing dies. First I finalized my peep sight adjustment and shot the group below, 1/2" with the Barnes Original and BH at 100 yds. I also show a close up of the front globe with crosshair insert.

[rangeball]

Apr 19, 2011 14:21:39 GMT -5 rkrobson said:

Days like today I wish Rick Bibby was around

I have no doubt that there is a great big smile on his face at this very moment

[rkrobson]

Sorry this is just easier for me. I then removed the peep and installed my scope. I knurled 6 Parker 325 BE to .458 and then full from sized them with the same setting I use for the Barnes Os. These actually loaded stiffer than the FF Barnes. I was expecting a great result, but two 1&3/4" vertical groups(attached), no chrono as I need to find if the velocity is the issue. Next time I'll size them less and post my results. Ray

[jeremylong]

Hey I noticed that the Nosler combined technologies has a newer 458 cal bullet too. Rossman mentioned it in another thread and I just seen it. www.nosler.com/Bullets/Combined-Technology.aspx

Not near as friendly flying through the air as the BO or Parker for sure, but probably allot more $$ friendly

[rkrobson]

Thats not a bad looking bullet Jeremy. Bcs from 2 to 2.4 or so fly relatively the same. I'll finish my work with the 325-7s with BH 209 to see if it will fly and then decide if its necessary to try another bullet. Those Originals are not only pricey but 3 major suppliers were out of them as well. Ray

[artjr338wm]

Ray,
If you would please, elaberate on the resizing die you are using. Please include who makes it, where to get it, cost, and how you use it.

I am looking into getting a rsizing die for my all copper Barnes .451" TMZs and Spit Fires. I wish to knurl them first to a larger size the resize them down to a spacific OD and then shoot them with sabots.

Thanks,
Arthur.

[rkrobson]

Art, this is the Swinglock Full Form die, swinglock.net, scroll down to dies. I think its $187. This die uses a section of your barrel to size a bullet that will be an obvious fit when pushed through. Its mainly for .458 bullets as they will fill the grooves of your barrel. With .450-.452 jacketed bullets and smokeless powder, a smooth bullet shoots fine when properly sized in a standard die. I do know from my personal experience copper is more difficult to obturate and requires a snug fit. I got the full form to see if it would help with Blackhorn 209, which worked great for the Barnes .458 300 grain originals full form sized. From here I was just trying to see if full form sizing would work on a .451 325 Parker BE knurled to .456,my barrel(. 45/.456). I haven't posted my most recent results as I want to shoot one more time, but its very encouraging for Blackhorn shooters. Tom at Swinglock can offer his experience for your particular situation. Ray

[rkrobson]

I've shot several times now, and to refresh what Iam doing. Full Form sizing(bullet passes through section of my barrel) .458 Barnes 300 gr originals and 325 Parker BEs knurled to .457. For anyone shooting Blackhorn or desiring a lighter load in smokeless powder in a 45 this is good news. The Barnes groups are never larger than 1" and the 325s have averaged 1". The proof for me will be shooting at 300 yds, as this gun is primarily for Colorado deer, where no scopes are allowed. Top group is Barnes 300 Os and bottom group is Parker 325 BE, Ray

[dave d.]

:)ray you are having a lot of fun it appears and shooting some awsome groups. Look forward to 300yrd groups.

[Deleted]

some good groups...eyes wide open

[rkrobson]

Yea, its been fun Dave, ,over 200 rounds of bullets that cost $1-$2, but Iam pretty much finished with this gun. I'am going to try my new DD,Edge,Petes plug with the .055 nipple hole and see if we can cut the ventliner wear down on these "hot rod" loads in the Pacnors, Ray