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Post by jray57 on Apr 15, 2011 15:56:02 GMT -5
Well I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered me a .45
Swing-lock smooth adjustable die. Now I need to know from you guys who shoot naked what I need to be getting while I wait on the die. I have enough different powders to play with for a while. What I would like comments on is which bullets you like and why. I know some of you really like the Parkers but how about the SST's or FTX's? I have a bunch of the 250 gr 452 XTP's I can play with getting used to sizing and all but as far as a good shooting hunting bullet what do you like?
I also notice that most use some sort of wad over the powder. Wool or veggie I think. Which do you prefer (or both) and why? Also where do you get them?
Another question concerning loading pressure. With the adjustable die I will be able to play with diameters but what do ya'll veterans look for as far as loading resistance? I have and have to use a Spinjag starter with my .40's in a blue harvester cause they are real snug. Should the sized bullets be comparable in force required to start them? Do accuracy and the perfect fit go hand in hand like it does with saboted?
I am sure that as I go along I will have more questions but if there is anything that anyone wants to add please do. I encourage and welcome all comments. Thanks in advance,John
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Post by 10ga on Apr 15, 2011 18:02:41 GMT -5
wool, soaked in lube! "speed green"! Bullshop, google it! 10
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Post by deadeye on Apr 15, 2011 18:41:37 GMT -5
i use imperial sizing wax for bullet resizing dont know on wads but i like the feel of un-lubed wool wads & so far in 275be's & 325be's they do the job www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=001064400Das far as seating pressure i would say as tight as reasonably can get down the bore & in the hunting field also but they need to be consistent each loading. you will need a solid ramrod-sooner or later your going to have to hammer one or a few down at times especially if trying different bullets,i use this solid tc 32'' ramrod www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=927534 |
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Post by Dave W on Apr 15, 2011 21:16:58 GMT -5
Parker BE's are the most accurate and consistent in my gun as far as bullets. I use the veggie wads from Cabelas or Sageoutfitters. www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sporting-goods?_encoding=UTF8&node=3375251&field-brandtextbin=SageOutfitters.comAs far as seating resistance. Approximately 50-70lbs starting, then dropping to approximately half that once the bullet gets moving down the bore with the 250/275 BE's as well as the 250 FTX/XTP's. Just depends on the fouling and bearing surface length of the bullet. THIS WORKS IN MY GUN but I don't think it is the only or possibly best way. Ray has been experimenting with a loose fit if IIRC in his Munden build. The guy I hunt with has a BP gun that has maybe a .453-.454 bore that .452 bullets fall down. Even with a heavy knurl, they are nowhere near as tight as what I have luck with. He has sent me several targets over the phone that are one ragged hole with the 200 & 250 FTX's propelled by a T-7/BH-209 duplex. I haven't tried a loose fit yet with the FTX and not sure it will work since the base of the bullet is smaller than the top of the bearing surface after sizing, something he avoids with his loose barrel. |
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Post by jims on Apr 15, 2011 22:19:03 GMT -5
I have to knurl my 200 SSTs in my .40 RB PacNor, if I did not they would just fall down the barrel. Even then they load with perhaps 1/3 the resistance of a saboted load in the .50. However they shoot quite well so they must obturate enough. I was initially concerned about the light resistance but RB said that combo would work in his barrel and it did.
I use a woolen type wad and mine likes a heavier load of a duplex.
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Post by rkrobson on Apr 15, 2011 23:36:16 GMT -5
jray57, My first suggestion is to shoot and have your barreled fouled, say 10 shots, and then pull your breech plug so you can test bullets for fit without having to hammer one down or pull your plug in the field. The Pacs I have are .4496-7 and require a bullet close to this dimension. My Munden 45 is as close to 45 that you can get, and likes a .4499 bullet. Invest or borrow a good micrometer and start with a .449 or so bullet, use a cheap bullet at this time and see what dimension will load with reasonable pressure. My Munden likes a lightly engraved bullet using max load pressure. Record your dimension as when you go to another bullet your die may require a different setting, but since you have the known dimension you can adjust die until you get what you need. I knurled bullets for the last 4 years, but no more as with this die you will get to a smooth dimension that will shoot, assuming you have sufficient pressure to obturate the bullet. The Parkers are expensive but shoot very well. Ray
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Post by jray57 on Apr 16, 2011 6:45:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight everyone. I can see this is going to be a little more involved than weighing up 6 or 7 successive weights of a known powder and going to the range with my 200gr Noslers and smooth blue sabots and coming away with a sub moa load. But this is a good thing because I like the challenge. Kinda like it was with my stock .50 barrel. Only difference is- with the Pac and less than 75 shots I already have 2 moa loads.
Now I need to get busy and decide what type of wad I want to use-or probably get some of each to try. I already use a solid aluminum ramrod I made out of 3/8 rod drilled and tapped for my spinjag. I must admit though, I don't relish the idea of having to hammer a bullet down my barrel! I already have a mic, not sure how good it is. It's a Starrett I've had for close to 40 years-maybe time for a new one. I know the adjustability of the swinglock is going to be a good thing. Being able to custom size bullets for the exact dimension needed. I hadn't given thought to not needing to knurl though.
I am sure there are others on the board who prefer shooting sabotless. I look forward to hearing your thoughts too.
Thanks for the help, John
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Post by Dave W on Apr 16, 2011 6:59:40 GMT -5
One additional thought. Different guns, loads, etc seem to like varying degrees of fouling. When I was swabbing between shots, the Parkers would group after two foulers. Now that I am shooting dirty, they appear to need three foulers based on the last two groups of the current load I am shooting. The 250 FTX needs six foulers when shot dirty in my gun. Harley, Moose, and Deadeye have reported different levels of fouling than what my gun needs.
It is easy to skip over a good load or get your cage rattled when you try to duplicate a group if you don't account for this variable.
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Post by jims on Apr 16, 2011 7:26:27 GMT -5
I would think your Starrett would give you adequate readings, save that money for bullets.
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Post by Richard on Apr 16, 2011 11:04:30 GMT -5
You may also want to pick a wooden dowel close to .450 caliber in the even you need to hammer one down! Probably put a .45 ACP casing on the end so you don't splinter it up ;D And don't worry if you do have to hammer one down. What you think is tight, to 30 to 40,000 psi is nothing. I swore my barrel would blow up with one I hammered down. I even turned my face away when I shot it over the chronograph?  ?? NOT a heck of a lot difference in velocity ;D. These bullets come no where near fully engraving the depth of the groves in your barrel. On the other hand, a CF rifle bullet will fully engrave the groves and they don't blow up  Good luck with the sabot less. Its work but fun. After a while you just might say........................."I'll stick with the sabots............Its a whole lot easier ;D" and then again, Maybe not? Its a fun journey! Richard |
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Post by deadeye on Apr 16, 2011 18:04:11 GMT -5
You may also want to pick a wooden dowel close to .450 caliber in the even you need to hammer one down! Probably put a .45 ACP casing on the end so you don't splinter it up ;D And don't worry if you do have to hammer one down. What you think is tight, to 30 to 40,000 psi is nothing. I swore my barrel would blow up with one I hammered down. I even turned my face away when I shot it over the chronograph? ?? NOT a heck of a lot difference in velocity ;D. These bullets come no where near fully engraving the depth of the groves in your barrel. On the other hand, a CF rifle bullet will fully engrave the groves and they don't blow up Good luck with the sabot less. Its work but fun. After a while you just might say........................."I'll stick with the sabots............Its a whole lot easier ;D" and then again, Maybe not? Its a fun journey! Richard i agree w/ richard except i will remain sabotless-here is a pic of a spin-jag i split while hammering one down during my adventure  that one was extra-tight! note- i ground the exterior until my new jag came in |
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Post by jray57 on Apr 16, 2011 19:39:23 GMT -5
Now you're scaring me!  Seriously, did the bullet start that tight? Did you expect it to become easier as it engraved only to have it stay tight? |
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Post by deadeye on Apr 16, 2011 21:05:39 GMT -5
Now you're scaring me! Seriously, did the bullet start that tight? Did you expect it to become easier as it engraved only to have it stay tight? this bullet started tightly ok & was( pre-smooth die)(swing-lock) arrival,you will find especially on a clean bore you have to over-knurl ones for a fouler or do something else to get it to go "pop",then it it is good to go, i have not had the time to perfect a fouler round as yet & might just incorporate a saboted round for this. the only point i was trying to make from richards remarks about safe bullet engraving/cf/ mz sabotless pressures/velocities etc sabotless is just as easy as finding the perfect sabot to bullet to bore combo imo,just a little different especially with different bullets that you cannot follow another's lead since this is relative new & no posted average standards. today while working w/ a bud's pac the ground was already broken here a very easy adjusting since we had approx measurements /data & a very small adjustment on the "smooth die" for his application hence-no hammer-downs! |
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Post by Dave W on Apr 16, 2011 21:14:34 GMT -5
I use .451 200 XTP's for foulers. Cheap and a very short bearing surface to guard against over knurling.
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Post by deadeye on Apr 16, 2011 21:22:25 GMT -5
I use .451 200 XTP's for foulers. Cheap and a very short bearing surface to guard against over knurling. davew- +1 & totally agree! |
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Good luck with the sabot less. Its work but fun. After a while you just might say........................."I'll stick with the sabots............Its a whole lot easier ;D" and then again, Maybe not? Its a fun journey!
Seriously, did the bullet start that tight? Did you expect it to become easier as it engraved only to have it stay tight?