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Post by jray57 on Apr 10, 2011 8:15:47 GMT -5
After finding a sub moa load with H4198 in my .45 Pac a couple of weeks ago I thought I would try to find a load with N120. The load workup was vary much the same results as with 4198. I tested loads of 58gr,59gr,60gr and 61gr of N120 with a lt blue sabot and Nosler 200 gr .40 bullet. Below are the targets shot in succession using a cool rod for about 1 minute between shots (while I looked for spent sabot). Temperature was in the mid 50's with light wind and overcast.   As was the case with the 4198 a small change in the charge wt made a big difference in group size. This doesn't cease to amaze me and is the primary reason for this post. In my gun I can use other member's experiences as a guide but ultimately MY gun will tell me what it likes. My gun seems to like fairly high pressures as evidenced by the charge wt of the most accurate load. The average velocity of the most accurate (approx 7/8")4198 load was 2783 at 63.5 grains. The best N120 load was at 61gr with an average velocity of 2830. This seems to support earlier observations about the relative burn rates of 4198 and 120. My next step will be the same as I did with the 4198. I will test loads of the 120 with a 1/2 gr spreads, 60.5,61 and 61.5. Not sure how this will work out depending on what the temperature is on my next outing. The reason I say this is while I experienced no sabot disruption with the 120 I did notice that the primers used with the 61gr loads were slightly "bulged" with one of them showing some carbon on the face. I am taking this as a sign of pressure although not excessive as the sabot would have given way. On a side note I tried the 4198 load this week only substituted a Barnes 195 for the Nosler. I included the target from the 200 Nosler for comparison.   While the average velocities were very close between the two different bullets(forgot to turn the chrony back on for the last shot with the Barnes) the accuracy was definitely not similar. I for one do not suscribe to the "best three out of five"mentality for load development as I am primarily a hunter and one is all we get. I'm not interested in playing the odds! I don't know why I thought I might be able to save some money by just changing to the high priced bullet once I had found a velocity node. I guess A work up is is needed for the Barnes. In closing I've learned you cannot take a "book" or someone elses pet load and expect best accuracy with your particular gun. And, for me at least, I'm going to have to burn more Barnes than I wanted to getting them to shoot their best. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 8:37:44 GMT -5
Hope you can get the barnes to tighten up for you. It looks like your gun "LOVES" that nosler though. Do you want the barnes for hunting or just trying to see where it will "tighten up". Your load working progress is very educational and does show that every gun has its own "sweet load" which may include a particular bullet. The difference is night and day when the right load is found. I would have to stick to the nosler seeing what it can do,but you've climbed that hill, good luck with the barnes I know you'll figure it out. Awesome post!!!
Amazed,
Greenhorn
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Post by tar12 on Apr 10, 2011 10:37:36 GMT -5
Keep an eye on the "first shot of day" to any of the rest regardless of cooling. I gave up on the N120 due to first cold barrel shot being a solid 4" higher at 200yds than any shot rest of session. Just could not make it quit being a lot higher. Here is what my "first shot of day" would do every time I shot the N120 at 200yds. I first thought it was because I had cleaned my breech plug, but it was NOT. I experienced this over 3 sessions. I noted similarity of your first target.  That is excatly why I shoot/hunt on a fouled bore regardless of powder or bullet.Were you shooting on a fouled bore? |
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Post by Dave W on Apr 10, 2011 10:41:23 GMT -5
Very nice trigger work!
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 10, 2011 11:29:51 GMT -5
Keep an eye on the "first shot of day" to any of the rest regardless of cooling. I gave up on the N120 due to first cold barrel shot being a solid 4" higher at 200yds than any shot rest of session. Just could not make it quit being a lot higher. Here is what my "first shot of day" would do every time I shot the N120 at 200yds. I first thought it was because I had cleaned my breech plug, but it was NOT. I experienced this over 3 sessions. I noted similarity of your first target. That is excatly why I shoot/hunt on a fouled bore regardless of powder or bullet.Were you shooting on a fouled bore? Have shot the above N120 load over 100 shots (with out any cleaning or swabbing) at 200yds. As I said I thought the clean plug did this so I kept going back and seeing were first shot of the day was going. Over at least 6 sessions (1 shot in morning and 1 shot in evening) and the first shot goes 3" high at 200yds regardless of what I do. If I shoot "first shot of day" from fouled uncleaned plug and uncleaned bore (with many shots from day before session) it is going to be the HIGHEST shot of the session, period. Sometimes as much as 4". Regimen after first shot is to ambient cool in the shade for 10 to as much as 15 minutes and shoot again. NO cleaning. About shot #4 or so and ALL after will all go in one big hole (bout 3 to 4" lower than first shot. The only way I could use 60gr of N120 with 195bx would be to sight it in to one shot per session over a period of days and then it would be extremely accurate (for one shot). |
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Post by jray57 on Apr 10, 2011 13:59:30 GMT -5
"The only way I could use 60gr of N120 with 195bx would be to sight it in to one shot per session over a period of days and then it would be extremely accurate (for one shot)."
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read your post! I need to keep one target and fire one shot at it at the beginning of each range session over the course of a few weeks. This would probably help with plotting temperature stability also as warmer weather will be rapidly approaching. Friday was nearly perfect conditions as far as approximating early MZ season. This will certainly become less and less so as the weeks pass. First step is to get both 4198 and 120 tuned to the Barnes as that is the bullet I want to use on game.
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Post by edge on Apr 10, 2011 14:00:12 GMT -5
Until I used PVC sabots which are very corrosive I never cleaned the barrel. I wished I did not need to, but pigs don't fly so I do need a clean barrel for every shot!
IMO, shoot dirty if you can. Some powders need a clean BP and I would avoid them if you can. If they are your GO TO load then you are stuck with them.
A dirty BP wears the vent liner much slower than a clean one, but you really need to find your best load.
edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 10, 2011 14:44:27 GMT -5
The ONLY time I clean a breech plug is when starting a new vent or to test a load for POI shift after I have a load that I think I will stick with for "go time".
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Post by tar12 on Apr 10, 2011 15:54:18 GMT -5
I have not experienced this but then again I do not shoot in hot weather. I will have to experiment to see if I can reproduce your results.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 10, 2011 16:06:06 GMT -5
I shot over a pound of N120 last month alone and have 2 more in the safe that I would sure like to use as the accuracy is top notch.
I may still go back to the shoot a shot every couple hours if needed and just sight it in and go. The best "first shot powder" I have tested.
I can lay 6 or 7 targets shot with it on top of each other and "first shot of the day" is less than an inch group, but on every target shots 2 & 3 are a couple inches lower, then 4, 5 & 6 to however many I shoot are in one inch group couple of more inches lower.
Perplexing to me.
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Post by tar12 on Apr 10, 2011 16:29:39 GMT -5
I have shot a lot of the N120 the last 3 yrs in the .50 and .45 and never experienced this. By chance are you smoking and drinking in between sessions? ;D Just kidding.... ;D
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 10, 2011 17:32:40 GMT -5
I have shot a lot of the N120 the last 3 yrs in the .50 and .45 and never experienced this. By chance are you smoking and drinking in between sessions? ;D Just kidding.... ;D Not YET,  but these things can drive you back to drink!!! |
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Post by jray57 on Apr 10, 2011 19:10:15 GMT -5
Do any of you guys who shoot the Barnes 195 as well as similar bullets such as the 200 gr XTP find that they tend to like the same load? Or do you find that you also need to work up specific loads for each? If so how do the powder charges for the different bullets compare? The Barnes while being 5 gr lighter seems to have about .120 more bearing surface (.440 for the Nosler compared to about .560 for the Barnes). I don't have a .40 comparator so the measurements are approximate. Would this tend to make you think that the Barnes would require less powder to reach the same pressure and would this correlate to expected accuracy? Just wonderin?
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Post by spoonover on Apr 10, 2011 19:38:20 GMT -5
jray Same duplex powers but one grain more for the 195 Barnes than the 200 XTP. 15/55 and 15/54, 4759/h322. That could change with the next trip? Have been ending up with better groups, Barnes are impacting high left from the 200 XTP? My thought was less powder for the 195's but groups went the worst?
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Post by Richard on Apr 10, 2011 19:48:43 GMT -5
jray57..............Very nice targets! Each is clear and contains good information. I liked the progression and your final results. Those Noslers do shoot good. It is also nice to see member shooting five shot groups. It gives a bigger picture of the load. It is also very rewarding to have you FIRST shot go in the same hole as the FIFTH one Oh, and don't get overly caught up in the "more bearing surface" thing. (this is just my personal opinion) This may hold true when shooting sabot less, but when you think of it, that bullet is inside the sabot and I seriously doubt .050" more "bullet bearing surface" translates to a whole lot of increased sabot friction  Velocities between the Barnes, XTP, Nosler and SST are all pretty close. Richard |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 10, 2011 19:50:02 GMT -5
jray Same duplex powers but one grain more for the 195 Barnes than the 200 XTP. 15/55 and 15/54, 4759/h322. That could change with the next trip? Have been ending up with better groups, Barnes are impacting high left from the 200 XTP? My thought was less powder for the 195's but groups went the worst? Do you have any speeds for these 2 loads? |
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Post by Chris Champion on Apr 10, 2011 23:31:27 GMT -5
Do any of you guys who shoot the Barnes 195 as well as similar bullets such as the 200 gr XTP find that they tend to like the same load? Or do you find that you also need to work up specific loads for each? If so how do the powder charges for the different bullets compare? The Barnes while being 5 gr lighter seems to have about .120 more bearing surface (.440 for the Nosler compared to about .560 for the Barnes). I don't have a .40 comparator so the measurements are approximate. Would this tend to make you think that the Barnes would require less powder to reach the same pressure and would this correlate to expected accuracy? Just wonderin? My gun will shoot the 200g SST about 50-70 fps faster then the Barnes with the same load. The Barnes shoots best in my gun when pushed to the same speeds as the SST, which means a little more powder. In my gun the 195 Barnes shoots best at 63g H4198, the SST likes 62g. Might I suggest a light knurl on the Barnes. My gun shoots the Barnes best when they are roughed up a little bit, especially at 200yds +. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 11, 2011 6:46:43 GMT -5
Might I suggest a light knurl on the Barnes. My gun shoots the Barnes best when they are roughed up a little bit, especially at 200yds +. Are you still knurling the flatter Barnes? |
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Post by Chris Champion on Apr 11, 2011 12:36:29 GMT -5
Might I suggest a light knurl on the Barnes. My gun shoots the Barnes best when they are roughed up a little bit, especially at 200yds +. Are you still knurling the flatter Barnes? Yes. When I first tested them at 100 yds I thought my knurling days were over as groups were tight and consistent. When I stretched it out to 200 & beyond groups opened up. Knurling brought them back in to MOA-ish range. Now, as I've noted in other posts regarding my need to knurl the Barnes, my barrell is at the high end of the land to land spec for the .458 Pacnor (.450 to .451), so a little knurling, (even on the SST), gives me the tighter fit that I like and helps in consistent accuracy and speeds. |
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but these things can drive you back to drink!!!
Velocities between the Barnes, XTP, Nosler and SST are all pretty close.