Average Accuracy

[twoodard]

Just doing this because I am curious. I know some guns will shoot better than others but im guessing the factory barrels will be in the 1.25-1.5 MOA. not looking for your best group just the average range day. thanks

Tyler

[cfvickers]

So far it looks like most are around an 1-1.25. That is about what I average with good sabots and bullets with IMR4759. I have one load that averages way under an inch but I can't do that all the time if I use a different bullet.

[Deleted]

Cvicker,
What bullet/combo is your sub MOA load I use 4759 also,and would like to try something different? I am using 42gns, and shooting 240xtps in black mmps.
Thanks,
Greenhorn

[northny]

I have three savages with 50 cal barrels. Two laminated, one synthetic. All three will shoot 1.5 to 2 inches. (but I only voted once).

The caveat: My first one was 5 inch MOA when I starting shooting it.... I was happy. But I quickly learned quite a bit from this forum( this was my first ML of any type). Once I developed a consistent loading technique, kept the barrel cool...I was below 3 inch. Then just a little experiment to find a tight load..and sub two inch.

The synthetic stock one is sensitive to how you rest the forend...

[wilmsmeyer]

I cast my vote for 100 yd accuracy of 1 - 1.25 moa

I would change that to 1.5 - 2 moa (3-4 inch groups) @ 200 yds

[Tarheel]

I get good groups with 44grs of 4759, 250gr XTP, MMP black sabots, and Federal 209 primers. It is bad deer medicine...

[twoodard]

good info guys. looks like we are getting some real world data. Im glad to see honest 1-1.5MOA results. like most of you i have shot groups in the .5 range but not every day. 1-1.25 seems to be my average.

[artjr338wm]

I recently went over every saved target from my 10ML-II I have that I know were shot AFTER I knew what I was doing. I was rather shocked by the fact my 10ML-II's best accuracy was dead even to my most accurate/favorite center fire rifle.

I know with great certainty that my 10ML-II will over 90% keep 3 shots at or less than 1.5" at 100yrds.

This poll brings up a interesting question. How does one actually determine a rifles accuracy average? The way I did it was add up the sizes of all my post learning stage groups and divide that group size average by the number of groups shot.

But I wonder for example, I have three 3-shot groups fired using the fallowing load developed by Wilms:
>325 FTX
>HCR sabot
>68 grains H4198
>FED 209A
The average of all three is under 1-MOA for 100yrds, the smallest group measured under 3/8" 0BS, (in-fact bullet #3 passed over 90% through the same hole as bullet #1) largest group 7/8", so does this qualify as a sub-moa load? and there fore make my 10ML-II a sub-moa rifle? In my opinion no, as I do not feel three 3-shot groups is enough data to prove this conclusively.

I feel that muzzleloaders are unique in the world of rifles as they are not only capable of and subject to having/suffering all of the same exact potential accuracy killing variables that center fire rifles do, but also have a whole list of other accuracy killing variables unique only to muzzleloaders.

It is this fact unique to muzzleloaders that IMHO makes me wonder why when anyone who's 10ML-II will ONLY shoot 1.25-1.5" 3-shot 100yrd groups consistently is complaining and not doing back flips and weeping tears of joy.

Just my .2c worth.

[twoodard]

I agree 100% on that. so many things to deal with. and it makes me wonder if some of the things we do to them really do make them shoot better. or if they make us spend more time with them and WE shoot them better. nothing equals range time but range time.

[DBinNY]

Art, your 3 shot groups with the 325 FTX can indeed be called sub-MOA. The more groups you shoot, the more certain you can be of it so long as the average size of the groups remains below 1 MOA. You can make your results as statistically valid as you wish if you shoot enough of them. If you want the real nitty gritty click on the link.

h1.ripway.com/dougsboard/standard%20deviation.pdf

The bottom line in hunting is that you need the first one to count and you can be supremely confident of that with your approach anyway. What else matters?

[cfvickers]

Apr 9, 2011 10:11:33 GMT -5 @greenhorn said:

Cvicker,
What bullet/combo is your sub MOA load I use 4759 also,and would like to try something different? I am using 42gns, and shooting 240xtps in black mmps.
Thanks,
Greenhorn

You may not believe me. I am using a T/C Superglide (yellow) sabot and a 225 FTX. It is not screeming fast but at 2300 fps it will do the trick on the deer I shoot at my average ranges. I tried the sabots because it was almost impossible to get anything els with a .452 bullet down the bore. and figured if it didn't work I could give them to my dad to use in his BP gun. Now they are all I use with that size bullet. I am using 43 grains of 4759 and Fed 209M primers. Boarhog gave me a little bit of everything else to try in the sabot department, but I went back to this one because it just works for me.

[Deleted]

I Believe!!! I need to try upping my load as you and Wilms are having good results with 43 and 44 gns of 4759 . I just have 4759 to worth with right now so I will try hotter loads with different bullet/sabot combos and see if groups shrink or spread.
I think this thread puts everyone on the same page about what to expect out of there with their ml1,2's. With you and wilms sharing your pet loads maybe others can improve their groups or share their loads so we can improve our own, thats why I'm on here everyday so I can learn and maybe help someone else out also.
Thanks,
Greenhorn

[Deleted]

Tarheel thanks for your load info I thought Wilms posted it
Greenhorn

[dans]

If you have an honest 2 MOA gun out to 200-250 yards, you have all the accuracy you need to consistantly kill deer. A 4 inch grouping rifle at 200 yards will be a deer killing machine.

[twoodard]

it sure will. Im really glad I started this and we are getting the results we are. my load now is IMR 4198 at 68 grs and a 250 ftx. had it up to 71 gr but recoil was to much. and like said before most of us are shooting deer and maybe black bear with these things. 300 yards is going to be a long shot. and neither are hard to kill when putting a 225-300 gr bullet in the right spot. good shooting guys. keep um coming.

Tyler

[cfvickers]

I agree Dans, by the way, mine is an original 10ML with no modifications.

[ET]

This is a good thread and enjoy seeing when an interest is focused on accuracy.

Like many others I had a struggle in acquiring MOA accuracy for a time and chased numerous modifications to achieve that goal with my synthetic stock.

Excluding those modifications I eventually developed a good loading routine that also helped with accuracy.

From a clean bore I would fire a primer and dry swab.
Then proceed loading using a trimmed sabot and indexing it to the bore.
When the load is bottomed I lean my weight onto the ramrod for a few seconds to try and get an even and consistent load pressure on the powder.

Once the shot is fired I immediately dry swab my bore.
A cooling time is applied before loading my next round. To assist with cooling time I use an aluminum-cooling rod.
In my case I do an intermittent bore cleaning after 4-shots. My 10ML-II just shoots better with a cleaner bore.

Because I have a recessed BP 42.5gr of 4759 (1/2lb can) with a 250gr bullet with a velocity of slightly over 2300fps works best. With the new 4759 in the 1lb plastic container a load of 44.5gr duplicates the velocity and performance.

The only note I can add here is that I found that the Harvester sabot makes a difference especially when warmer temperatures arrive.


Ed

[cfvickers]

I have found several duplex loads that are moa or better, and get far more velocity, but I cannot see where they are practical in hunting situations. They may be for some, but I like having less worry and just one powder to deal with when I need to reload on the stand. The slicker sabot makes it easier to do as well.