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Post by ET on Apr 6, 2011 20:14:44 GMT -5
Boy has smokeless muzzle loading really advanced this year ranging from heavy to light weight bullets. But here the goal seems to really emphasize velocity and long range. I have no problem with this approach and enjoy following the progress. This area I will leave to the adventurous spirited individuals to reach new heights.
Currently my interest and goals lie elsewhere for getting a better understanding of Interior Ballistics. This can really put your head into a spin with all the variables that are intertwined. The intrigue for me is, I need to know and have a better understanding.
The Pressure Traces that TGinPa and Richard have graciously produced have been revealing in more ways than one. Even though the traces are not proven 100% accurate they sure add a measure of safety from their revealing nature.
Hopefully in the near future I can get out and join in with generating some traces with the 50.
My first step will be to develop a base line load for comparing consistency of trace results with the 250gr load and then moving downwards to 225gr bullet and then back to 200gr bullets as I previously started. Through this course I also want to introduce a spherical powder for the 200gr bullet for an economical range load say with the 200xtp.
Anyway I’m itching to get out and 2-things are sort of bogging me down at the moment. A temporary job running 7-days a week and wet windy Spring weather. Hopefully by Easter weekend I can get the ball rolling and my initial testing setup out of the way.
Never expected what I would learn and get into joining this Board.
Sure makes life interesting. ;D
Ed
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Post by stubblejumper on Apr 6, 2011 20:20:52 GMT -5
Keep us posted. Looking forward to more info.
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Post by Richard on Apr 6, 2011 20:54:18 GMT -5
OK Ed, we will be looking forward to your results. I know you are itching' to fire up that PT to get some .50 info!  Richard |
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 6, 2011 21:01:48 GMT -5
Ed, have you found a spherical powder that will not fall through the
vent liner?
I have used H335, but only in a duplex load over N110 because it
will fall through the vent liner, otherwise. Even at that, I could not
get a complete burn with it.
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Post by ET on Apr 6, 2011 21:07:12 GMT -5
Ed, have you found a spherical powder that will not fall through the vent liner? I have used H335, but only in a duplex load over N110 because it will fall through the vent liner, otherwise. Even at that, I could not get a complete burn with it. It's not a true sherical powder as it appears to have a flake contour but is classified as one. I don't see it an issue of falling through the vent. Let's just say I'm playing a LONGSHOT. ;D eD |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 8:47:39 GMT -5
Let's just say I'm playing a LONGSHOT. ;D eD Oooooh I have some of that and no idea what to do with it since I no longer cast and load shotgun slugs  |
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Post by ET on Apr 7, 2011 16:20:16 GMT -5
Rangeball I believe Longshot will produce a nice light economic load for playing at the range with say a 200xtp bullet in the 50. I’ve had decent results with the 200xtp with lower velocities and fun too shoot. Sometimes it’s nice to just go to the range and play with a load that doesn’t want to bruise your shoulder. A lighter load also allows you to concentrate on your shooting form. Anyway look forward to what eventually develops in this direction along with some uncompleted experiments. If you happen to have a 460 S&W magnum you could burn some here too.  Ed |
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Post by ET on Apr 8, 2011 19:58:15 GMT -5
Just thought this might be of interest to some as to what Longshot powder looked like when compared to 4759. Longshot is the one on the right.  Ed |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 8, 2011 20:09:41 GMT -5
Looks like it makes a lot more psi and with nearly 20gr less powder in the max data.
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Post by ET on Apr 8, 2011 21:45:03 GMT -5
Gmb54120
Yes this powder builds pressure faster and will be what I’m looking for in a 50 for an economical 200gr bullet load.
Keep in mind that it will be used in the 50 that has a larger volume area than a 45 for pressure build up.
No crimp and bullet engraving into the lands will also not allow pressure to build as rapidly so it wouldn’t surprise me if that 30grains or slightly more powder will provide a nice useable pressure near 40K for a decent velocity of slightly over 2000fps.
My starting point will be 25grains and see what pressure develops at this point.
Originally I planned to use Longshot for a Turkey load with nickel-plated #5 shot but for the amount of Turkey loads I use in a year it wasn’t worth the trouble. Now if it proves to be a nice accurate economical load for the 50 and 200xtp bullets it won’t age any longer in the cabinet for powder storage.
This type of experimenting will probably not interest many who prefer to see top end loads but with some planned additional experimenting I hope to also get a better understanding of Interior Ballistics involving powders and burn rates.
Ed
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 8, 2011 23:24:12 GMT -5
No, actually i really like loads that are fun and dont beat you to death. I shoot far more of them than i do top end loads. I would really like to see a nice 50x40 load that was economical and accurate. 2100fps is plenty for fun or reduced recoil loads.
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Post by ET on Apr 9, 2011 6:28:57 GMT -5
Gmb54120
Not sure how well a 50/40 combination will work because I suspect the pressure spike will be fairly fast. My experimental load will revolve around 45 cal 200xtp.
Regardless of the outcome I will post results.
I agree shooting is more fun and enjoyable with lighter recoiling loads. I also find I tend to be more focused on my shooting form instead of wondering how much the next shot is going to feel when it kicks me.
One thing nice about muzzle loading is the diversity it provides over CF rifles. I have yet to find a dull moment where the firearm gets parked until needed.
Ed
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 9, 2011 14:03:41 GMT -5
ET
If you want to try the least expensive FTX option, the 225gr is cheaper. They come in 100 packs for about the same price as 50 of the 200gr FTXs or 100 XTPs. The 200gr though appears to be a much tougher bullet but if its used mostly for fun instead of hunting the 225gr should do nicely. Difference in recoil should be minimal.
The 225gr might also be interesting shot sabotless in a 45cal. The bearing surface is a bit longer than the 200gr and the jacket appears to be thinner.
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Post by mike.dawson on Apr 9, 2011 14:20:08 GMT -5
I have shot the 225 FTX with 60 grains fo N120 and the short mmp black. It is the most accurate round out of my savage. I have posted that result before. I wanted to use that bullet for deer until I spoke to Hornady techs. The round was designed for max velocity of 1600 fps, the 60-62 gr of N120 was producing 2550=2650 fps and Hornady said that at that speed it was a varmint grenade.
I put a knurl on the 225 and it load hard in my savage but shoots really great. It is a fun round to shoot and even with that much N120 the recoil is mild
Ed and I have tried to work up a 200 XPB with poor results
As far as a 50x40 load many have tried and at smokeless speeds it drills the sabots. It has been tried with the harvester and mmp 50x40 sabot, sub bases, nylon washers, paper patching etc.. you can make the 50x40 work with BH209 but trying to drive the 40cal bullets to speed the results normally are not on paper.
Mike
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 9, 2011 15:31:43 GMT -5
Mike Even with 115gr of BH209 the 225gr FTX nearly vaporizes. LOL.....but its lots of fun and shot good in my old Extreme. Ive pretty much given up hope on a 50x40 unless i can talk Del into making a new sabot which i don't see happening.  I just love to keep it fun and if its economical, its all the better. |
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Post by ET on Apr 9, 2011 18:47:21 GMT -5
Gmb54120
Your comments are appreciated for consideration and the 225FTX will be included in my future experimental trials. Mike already is a step ahead of me on this one.
Even if not recommended for deer they ought to be a nasty accurate yote eliminator.
Mike is right about getting the 200XPB to reasonably perform but the towel hasn’t been tossed in yet. The big obstacle with lighter bullets is knowing what the pressure is at. I believe I quit too early with a powder load for concern of not knowing the pressure. Well that story is going to change with the blindfold removed. At least with a PT unit it will take the guesswork out it.
Anyway 2011 will be an educational year for me.
Ed
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Post by Jon on Apr 10, 2011 1:12:40 GMT -5
Ed. Looking forward to further info.
Jon
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Post by ET on Apr 10, 2011 5:41:06 GMT -5
Jon I’m itching to get started at my end but need to be patient just a little longer. One problem for me is tracking traces for specific info and hope that a basic data sheet will minimize my researching traces. Also having specific info readily available for a comparison to a load should help with any analectic review. There will be a separate sheet designated for each weight of bullet for now. Using Excel I can add rows to segregate say 200gr bullet designs and still keep them to one sheet.  It will get more interesting once I get underway. Ed |
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Post by jims on Apr 10, 2011 7:20:21 GMT -5
That data sheet will be helpful.
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Post by mountainam on Apr 10, 2011 7:44:19 GMT -5
ET, I've tried Longshot for some high performance turkey loads and was very disappointed with the results. Advertised velocities were attained ,but core dense patterns were not. The pressure must spike very rapidly. So all that I use it for now are for close range spreader loads since it does that so well. I stick with Alliant STEEL for all my turkey loads where dense cores are required. I realize that none of this applies to your intended use for LONGSHOT,but I was wondering with it's attributes if it would make a reliable booster in duplex loads for our ml's. Can't wait to read of your endeavors. Thanks!
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Post by ET on Apr 10, 2011 9:39:33 GMT -5
Mountainam
To be honest I’m not sure about what characteristic of the pressure curve for Longshot will appear like.
It should rise fast with a 200gr bullet like 4759 does with a 250gr bullet.
By rights as a booster it should work because of it’s rated faster burn rate.
I’m not really into duplex but will try some to see if their affect can be seen with faster burning powders that have a shorter pressure cycle.
Does a booster change pressure cycle time?
A question in the back of my mind with duplex is the affect on accuracy. A small change in the load combination seems to affect accuracy and group size, why?
Does optimum barrel time (OBT) play a role here?
Lots of unanswered question and hope to see if some answers can be found without compiling to many more questions. ;D
Nothing to thank as I’m doing it as much for my learning benefit and hopefully the info generated will benefit others in some way. It is a Board of sharing experience and knowledge.
Ed
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Post by Jon on Apr 10, 2011 11:27:22 GMT -5
Ed. Looks and sounds very good. Looking forward to when the fun starts for you. Keep us posted. That data sheet looks to be very helpful.
Jon
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