|
Post by bigmoose on Apr 12, 2011 10:38:38 GMT -5
I just mic'ed a bunch of Barnes X bullets, 300 & 350 gr. all shot with orange sabots,
Before firing .458 after firing .458
Both great penetrators
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Apr 12, 2011 13:05:31 GMT -5
I should have said the I mic'ed the bases, nose a perfect mushroom
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 13:32:11 GMT -5
Just had a conversation with a friend who is pretty tight with Barnes (he thinks). he is going to call and see about what it would take to do a bullet like we need, or if they would even think about it....Bill
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 12, 2011 14:10:33 GMT -5
Sweet....
|
|
|
Post by pposey on Apr 12, 2011 14:10:35 GMT -5
how much would be gained from a plastic tip on the current 195grain flatbase
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 12, 2011 15:01:50 GMT -5
how much would be gained from a plastic tip on the current 195grain flatbase Not much I suspect. Looking at the .451 barnes spitfire and tipped spitfire, tip adds 5 gr and bumps bc from .203 to .210. The 195 has a longer bearing surface than nose section, opposite what we see with the high bc parker 325.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 12, 2011 15:22:10 GMT -5
If you are using a copper bullet then save money and add a meplat! You lose very little in BC with a meplat under 1/8 inch...calculate a bullet both ways...you will be surprised. If you can make an accurate plastic tip then make it as large as possible. If it were me, I would use 360 bronze aka free machining brass. It is much cheaper and easier to machine than soft copper. I hear you say that it won't deform like copper, and you are right Make a huge hollow point and add a plastic tip....or even easier use lead. You will end up with great weight retention, a nose that deforms on contact, and a big savings in material cost. edge.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 12, 2011 15:38:59 GMT -5
I altered my last design to include an 1/8" meplat. OAL went from 1.32 to 1.17, weight is a grain more at 243 and bc dropped from .387 to .315.
Edge, are you saying the small meplat will give good terminal performance in the absence of expansion?
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 12, 2011 16:48:12 GMT -5
SNIP Edge, are you saying the small meplat will give good terminal performance in the absence of expansion? I am suggesting to use brass for the shank section and lead for the nose and you will have good terminal performance. I am NOT suggesting a brass bullet with no hollow point and a small meplat as you probably would not like the terminal performance. Here is a Remington 300 grain bullet that I modified. If I were making a bullet I would make the brass piece similar to the copper jacket here. I would drill the center and add lead and point it up. If you make it 100% copper you will have at least $1.00 just in material...IMO. edge. PS a monometal bullet does have the advantage of of concentricity and a more uniform CG!
|
|
|
Post by spoonover on Apr 12, 2011 19:06:17 GMT -5
Maybe this guy could help? Copper could be cheaper in Africa? I have tried some of ( have a great respect for his work) his bullets back when Barnes started there X bullets. His were way better back in the day, now it is not worth the hassle as Barnes has made a big improvement over the years. GS always had groves and some years later Barnes made the switch to groves. Someone shoot him an e-mail that knows more than I, if price is rite I would be interested! www.gsgroup.co.za/faqcustom.html
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 12, 2011 20:27:03 GMT -5
Do not confuse ribs and grooves, Barnes have grooves and GS and KJG have ribs. This is done to reduce friction.
Using brass for the bullets is walking a fine line with the ATF,
The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17): "(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
The "which may be used in a handgun" means any handgun caliber and the appropriate weight. I think that was the big thing when Barnes made the switch to pure copper and was bragging on it when this kicked in back in the 90s. While it is legal to posses, own, buy and sell AP ammo you can't make it unless you have a certain class of FFL and then it is restricted sales. If you get caught with homemade .40 brass bullets by the friendly ATF it could turn into a "send lawyers, guns and money" moment. There are some other "provisions" for sporting ammo if you read the whole thing but like I said your basicly walking a fine line.
|
|
|
Post by jims on Apr 12, 2011 21:03:34 GMT -5
I thought that language was used in handguns so they would less likely pierce law enforcement safety vests (bullet proof vests) but do not hold me to that.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 12, 2011 21:53:42 GMT -5
They put the language in to stop the rounds like the French THV, the GECO BAT bullet and the PMC "Ultramag". While all were brass the THV used a funky tip and the BAT and "Ultamag" were tubular bullets or "cookie cutters". While Kevlar will take a blunt force you can cut it.
It may take a ATF guy having a bad day but you can spend a lot of money on legal fees having lawyers argue definitions.
|
|
|
Post by wayles on Apr 12, 2011 22:57:08 GMT -5
Edge Where did you get the ballistic tips? thanks Wayles
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 12, 2011 23:12:15 GMT -5
Edge Where did you get the ballistic tips? thanks Wayles They are PVC that I made a while back on a lathe. edge.
|
|
|
Post by pposey on Apr 13, 2011 6:58:23 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 13, 2011 7:58:45 GMT -5
SNIP The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17): "(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
SNIP. OK, unless a LEO is going to redefine the term ENTIRELY, then a brass bullet with a lead or plastic core is excluded from this by definition! (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances)I think that if someone wanted to make these and was worried then they should make a call to Lehigh Bullets and ask them is they have a ruling from the ATF and clear it up right away...at least that is what I would do edge. Hmmm.....actually adding a lead or plastic core to the Lehigh bullet would simplify testing quickly To Do list gets longer each day ;D
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2011 9:32:37 GMT -5
I just brought it up as a possible hiccup and hopefully a person can have the answers ahead of time to avoid problems. I had a slight run in with the ATF recently, while one agent from one office sounded like he was going to throw me in jail, once I talked to the local agent a few days later and told the exact same story everything was cool. I just want to avoid anybody having that experience. Several states also have their own laws against AP ammo (even your NJ) and too many LEOs like to "when in doubt, arrest/charge first and let the courts sort it out". A LEO will not argue definitions like what is a trace amount. Even if you stick a plastic tip in wouldn't then your jacket be over 25% of weight.
It would be interesting to hear Lehighs comments or if they ever thought of it.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 13, 2011 9:47:34 GMT -5
I don't think that a ballistic tip could be argued that it is a FMJ...but who knows It would also seem that coming here and designing a bullet for a ML would negate any LEO argument that it is " designed and intended for use in a handgun" edge.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2011 10:25:45 GMT -5
The key there is "may be used" regardless of the designed intent.
|
|
|
Post by jims on Apr 13, 2011 11:07:16 GMT -5
Certainly the BATFE are not always the most rational people.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2011 12:15:22 GMT -5
You have to remember this law came into effect in like 1986 and then got more "teeth" with the 1994 Brady bill. If you guys remember Clinton tried to make it even tougher in 1995 which would have banned a lot of ammo that could penetrate body armor, like most centerfire rifle ammo. One thing I did find interesting when doing some research is the current wording of the Federal Code went from the Secretary (Secretary of the Treasury) to the Attorney General on making the determination if the projectile is used for sporting purposes. This is still probly delegated down to the ATF anyway.
I would contact the local ATF and ask for clarification on this but I'm a bit gunshy right now. And then trying to get them to put it in writing is next to impossible. So if one guy says it is OK and then down the road another one says it isn't your screwed.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 13, 2011 12:26:27 GMT -5
The key there is "may be used" regardless of the designed intent. Wrong clause! (ii) ONLY applies if it is DESIGNED AND INTENDED for use in a handgun! edge.
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2011 13:17:48 GMT -5
True,, but if they go back to (i) your still in hot water if they think the plastic qualifies as a trace being that it is only a few percent of the total weight. Again your back to arguing definitions with the LEO or the court.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 13, 2011 14:48:14 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by pposey on Apr 14, 2011 8:04:39 GMT -5
Some very interesting stuff on there, seems they can set you up for the bullet making process.. alim. tips and bullet balls?
Gotta remember that any bullet that is .40 can be loaded in my 10mm and used. I can get 1100fps pretty easy with any 200 grain bullet and 1300 with a 175 grain.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 14, 2011 11:05:06 GMT -5
What you need to calculate is the difference between the OAL and the ogive and make sure you have at least 1 caliber of bearing surface! edge. Edge, I'd like to get into this a little more please. With all copper, I can come up with a much higher BC bullet and maintain one caliber of bearing surface. If I use a jacketed lead bullet like you suggest, I can't maintain once caliber of bearing surface and keep weight in the spec range we've been discussing. I suppose I could replace a good section of the lead nose with a plastic tip, but I don't believe the program will let me calculate that so it'd be a wild guess what the bc would be?
|
|
|
Post by edge on Apr 14, 2011 11:58:13 GMT -5
Is 1 caliber of bearing surface an absolute, NO!
It may be too low or more than that needed, but I think that it is a good place to start. If this were my project, i would try to test this. I would probably ask someone that has good test results and a lathe and ask them to take say a 200 grain Barnes bullet and machine the bearing surface back to where it blows sabots or become erratic.
Back to your question:
BC is basically the form factor ( or bullet shape ) multiplied by the weight of the bullet.
So let's say you design a bullet and the BC is .300 and it weighs 240 grains.
Now if you ONLY change the weight, say you started with pure copper and now you make it out of pure lead so it weighs about 323 grains.
The BC goes up by the same ratio so now the BC is about .400
So in your case: 1) design the bullet from copper how you want it to look to get your weight and the BC.
2) design it now as a blunt bullet without the tip, for the weight ONLY.
3) now if your TIP section is going to be lead, then the tip weight will be 1/3 heavier than the copper, and if it were say PVC plastic it will weigh less than 20% of the copper TIP.
4) now finally we divide the ORIGINAL copper BC by the ORIGINAL copper weight and multiply that by the NEW weight.
Example:
Original weight 240 and original BC .300
Blunt Bullet weight 200 grains ( TIP weight in copper is 40 grains )
Lead TIP = 40 times 1.333 = 53 grains PVC TIP = 40 times .18 = 7 grains
FINALLY your bullet with a LEAD TIP weighs 253 grains and has a BC of .316
OR your bullet with a PVC TIP weighs 207 grains and has a BC of .259
I hope that helps.
edge.
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Apr 14, 2011 13:40:40 GMT -5
Edge. Very informative. I really appreciarte the efort you put forward. The one thing outstanding to me is there is a lot mor to designing a bullet than I had ever thought about. I keep reading over and over. Not that I would ever think of designing a bullet. But it sure does open my eyes as to what is envolved. Thanks to you Roosman and many others for the info. Jon
|
|
|
Post by jims on Apr 14, 2011 13:42:16 GMT -5
This site has come along way from the days of just what powder and how much to use. I appreciate all this extra information that is contributed. I wonder just how far we can go with all this and I am enjoying the ride.
|
|