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Post by Dave W on Mar 23, 2011 21:01:45 GMT -5
Great shooting, especially with the conditions! Velocity?
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 23, 2011 21:04:55 GMT -5
Great shooting, especially with the conditions! Velocity? The only one I timed was the 12/54 and 3 shot avg was 2907 with ES of 28. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 21:13:46 GMT -5
dont know about your barrel but on mine if I swab I sacrafice accuracy. after cleaning the fifth shot starts going in one hole but not before. might want to try it and see......good shooting
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 23, 2011 21:20:12 GMT -5
dont know about your barrel but on mine if I swab I sacrafice accuracy. after cleaning the fifth shot starts going in one hole but not before. might want to try it and see......good shooting Next on the list. ;D |
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Post by deadeye on Mar 23, 2011 22:28:32 GMT -5
nice work & shooting,never would have thought to see (anything saboted) 195gn@ 2900fps in 85degree weather hold up!  |
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Post by shooter on Mar 24, 2011 0:14:10 GMT -5
nice work & shooting,never would have thought to see (anything saboted) 195gn@ 2900fps in 85degree weather hold up! +1 great shooting and great work on the duplex. |
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Post by jims on Mar 24, 2011 3:29:57 GMT -5
That 12/54 combo holds some real promise it appears.
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Post by dave d. on Mar 24, 2011 5:53:35 GMT -5
:)mark great shooting and definitely shoot her dirty and see how she does.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 6:49:21 GMT -5
:)mark great shooting and definitely shoot her dirty and see how she does. I will test dirty especially as get on to 300yds. I ran out of light before I could shoot the load at 13/53 like TG had traced a couple of weeks back. I am satisfied that a 66gr total is the right place to be on total volume. Next session I will be shooting 12/54 and 13/53 at 200 - 300 yds to see who the winner is. For this session I will be not be doing any swabbing. |
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Post by rangeball on Mar 24, 2011 8:55:37 GMT -5
Just wish 120 was more readily available.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 9:01:36 GMT -5
Just wish 120 was more readily available. Yes it can be hard to get at times, but it is available right now and a pound of it makes over 450 shots used like this. |
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Post by bob64 on Mar 24, 2011 10:28:12 GMT -5
Duplexing two similar, good performing powders and getting even better results makes me wonder. So many possible combinations that could be tested before we can say we are there. This combination looks so good but is there better? Reloder 7 and other powders could be in the mix as well. It keeps us going and my thanks to the ones doing the work and the testing as all will benefit.
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Post by TGinPA on Mar 24, 2011 13:21:46 GMT -5
Pressure Trace:PN45 N120/H4198 12/54 195bx (comparison with a reversed load) Continuing the search for an optimal load using N120/H4198 duplex , I tested the load shown above both as a standard duplex and a reversed load. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 64-65 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .031 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Barnes 195bx. Bullet weight = 195 gr. ,unknurled. Sabot: Harvester Smooth Blue Powder: T1-T3: N120/H4198 12/54gr. T4,T5: H4198/N120 54/12gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions.  All shots exceeded the 2900fps threshold. T1 may be aberrant, as it followed a series of shots in which a lubed wad had been used, perhaps altering bore frictional resistance. It loaded a bit smoother than the 4 following shots. Compared to the standard duplex with fast behind the slow powder, the reversed duplex load shot at a slightly lower average peak pressure (31976psi v. 34257psi) but also a lower velocity (2912fps v. 2948fps). In answer to bob64's question.. "So much to do and so little time.. One does get to a point where the law of diminishing returns appears. Recently, I have tested a number of combinations of this duplex load and I have been impressed with the effects of small load changes, particularly on secondary pressure waves. If such small differences in load can make significant differences in pressure recordings, it would seem logical that even small differences in barrel geometry might have similar influence. There may be enough difference between barrels of the same make and caliber so that each may require a slightly different tweaking of this load combination for optimal accuracy. At this point, other than for “proof of a concept” (reversed duplex for instance), I wonder about the value of my further pressure testing of such small load changes to improve accuracy of this combination for each individual barrel. In some cases,pressure tracing can save months of work. In others, (IMHO) after establishing with pressure tracing that a load has promise and is within a relatively safe pressure range, targets and a bunch of shooters are all that are needed. I would be interested in what others think. TG |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 13:58:06 GMT -5
TG I agree completely. I do not see any further tracing of this type load necessary. I have seen from shooting it that this type load has the same "tune-ability" as either powder as a single, as you stated about the effects of "small changes". This was one of the original goals to be tune-able for any 45 barrel with reasonable length.
The goal to get to 2900 with a "plenty good deer load" is also available.
The goal to keep pressures under 35K for hot weather use is met too.
Only shooters testing will help beyond this point.
One note, and mind you that 2-3 traces of each do not represent enough to stand firm on, but I think that N120 in front will keep ES a bit lower and speed a bit more. I always watch "pressure ES" closely.
Thanks for your hard work, this takes a lot of expense and effort to work thru, you are the man. I have no doubt that a better combo of either powders or volumes can make this type load a better load, but good nuff for my needs.
Thank You
Mark
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 24, 2011 14:42:42 GMT -5
I agree this load is showing promise for hot weather shooting, but I am thinking for cold weather shooting it may not do as well. I am pretty sure everyone is aware that N120 and H4198 are temp sensitive powders and as it gets colder loads using these powders lose speed. This was part of the reason I started testing more with N110 under N120 in my .50 cal now I know the .45 cal is a different beast, but using this duplex in a 50 gave me very reliable consistent speeds all the way down into the 30's.
It will be interesting to see where the POI is from above 50 degrees to below 50 degrees if this is to be tested.
Man I agree with so many powders and so little time.
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Post by jray57 on Mar 24, 2011 14:44:01 GMT -5
I was somewhat hesitant to post my results after my observations with the new Nosler bullet last week were discredited as opinion. But anywayI was at the range yesterday to see if I could tweak the load I was working with last week and descided I would shoot one of your 13/53 N120-H4198 loads just to see what it would do. I shot 5 rounds over the chrony for an average velocity of 2871. This load was shot with the Nosler 200 in a Harvester LtBlue with CCI 209m primers. Chrony was 10' from muzzle. As you can see (if attachment posts) accuracy out of my 26" barrel was dismal. For a comparision I included the target from my best load with H4198 as a single(63.5). Last week I only carried charges from 58 to 63 grains with 63 shooting the best. This week I shot 62.5,63 and 63.5. the velocity averaged 2782 for the 5 shots with group size right at 7/8". I don't know how to do the SD or ES but the individual velocities are on the target.
Anyway I would like to continue working with the N120/H4198 duplex and was wondering if you could give me suggestions as to where I should go. Should I increase the N120 while dropping the H4198? I know you have said that you thought 66 grains to be about the optimal total weight. How high could one go with the booster, 20 gr.? How low? Also do you think that using a standard primer would help with getting a better burn earlier in the barrel than the mag that I am using now?
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Post by jray57 on Mar 24, 2011 14:46:22 GMT -5
Target with H4198 as single at 63.5 ( if someone can tell me how to post targets properly?!)
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Post by rangeball on Mar 24, 2011 14:56:02 GMT -5
You have to save it as a jpeg file, upload it to a web based service like photobucket then copy and paste the image code here. Oh, very very nice  What temps were you shooting in and any sabot disruption? |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 15:00:19 GMT -5
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 15:16:33 GMT -5
I was somewhat hesitant to post my results after my observations with the new Nosler bullet last week were discredited as opinion. But anywayI was at the range yesterday to see if I could tweak the load I was working with last week and descided I would shoot one of your 13/53 N120-H4198 loads just to see what it would do. I shot 5 rounds over the chrony for an average velocity of 2871. This load was shot with the Nosler 200 in a Harvester LtBlue with CCI 209m primers. Chrony was 10' from muzzle. As you can see (if attachment posts) accuracy out of my 26" barrel was dismal. For a comparision I included the target from my best load with H4198 as a single(63.5). Last week I only carried charges from 58 to 63 grains with 63 shooting the best. This week I shot 62.5,63 and 63.5. the velocity averaged 2782 for the 5 shots with group size right at 7/8". I don't know how to do the SD or ES but the individual velocities are on the target. Anyway I would like to continue working with the N120/H4198 duplex and was wondering if you could give me suggestions as to where I should go. Should I increase the N120 while dropping the H4198? I know you have said that you thought 66 grains to be about the optimal total weight. How high could one go with the booster, 20 gr.? How low? Also do you think that using a standard primer would help with getting a better burn earlier in the barrel than the mag that I am using now? ES (extreme spread) is simply the difference from high to low, whether pressure, velocity etc.. If I am reading your targets correctly the H4198 single load had ES of 59fps and the duplex had ES of 38fps. Some guns may be able to shoot the higher volume singles but I see that as the exception and not the rule. My gun i.e. did just the opposite of yours when I got to 64gr or above of H4198, it started opening up groups quick. I would recommend to anyone to try them under multiple conditions both as singles and duplex. If you are heart set on more speed you probably will have to go the duplex route. I develop the max accuracy loads with both N120 and H4198 as a single before I went down this path. My reasoning was based solely on more speed, but wanted to keep accuracy close to the best single as a benchmark. The loads tested in my gun started at 10/56, 11/55, 12/54 and yet to compare 13/53. Each load shot with discernible differences on target. Don't know yet the results can be duplicated or not but show potential. Could be best load is at 14/52 or 15/61. Theoretically you should be able to hit a pressure/speed/time variant your barrel will shoot. Heck I don't know for sure if my barrel will shoot it, but first session it has shot as good as either single for me. |
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Post by jray57 on Mar 24, 2011 16:00:54 GMT -5
SS- speed is less of an issue for me. Accuracy(repeatable) is what I am looking for. It is amazing to me the small window in charge wts where the best accuracy occurs. How you can go from 2.5 to 3" down to under 1" in only a grain and a half. I think TG alluded to that in his post. I actually had charges of N120 ranging from 58 to 62 grains to try yesterday but the storm caught me. Is this a reasonable spread of charge weights to try? Start lower, go higher? I think I will try to see if I can find a "go to" using N120 before I pursue the duplex further.
rangeball- the temperature was 65. Used a cooling rod between all shots.All the sabot bases looked good. No change in the appearance of the bases for all the loads I shot. The petals however looked distinctly different for the 13/53 loads. Hard to describe but the petals had a somewhat "stretched" or "wavy" look. Some petals more than others on the same sabot. This is just the first 70 or so shots with my Pac and the sabots load very tight. No cleaning between shots.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 24, 2011 21:59:51 GMT -5
SS- speed is less of an issue for me. Accuracy(repeatable) is what I am looking for. It is amazing to me the small window in charge wts where the best accuracy occurs. How you can go from 2.5 to 3" down to under 1" in only a grain and a half. I think TG alluded to that in his post. I actually had charges of N120 ranging from 58 to 62 grains to try yesterday but the storm caught me. Is this a reasonable spread of charge weights to try? Start lower, go higher? I think I will try to see if I can find a "go to" using N120 before I pursue the duplex further. rangeball- the temperature was 65. Used a cooling rod between all shots.All the sabot bases looked good. No change in the appearance of the bases for all the loads I shot. The petals however looked distinctly different for the 13/53 loads. Hard to describe but the petals had a somewhat "stretched" or "wavy" look. Some petals more than others on the same sabot. This is just the first 70 or so shots with my Pac and the sabots load very tight. No cleaning between shots. Yes I am seeing a grain or 2 make difference in accuracy, this afternoon I shot the 13/53 into three 3 shot groups @ 200, 1st group 1.5",,,,2nd group 1.6" and thinking good thoughts ,,,,,,3rd went 3".........I will give this load some more shooting as it may have been me but I don't think so. Do not know if it is just my gun but a grain up or down opens groups for me with singles too tho. I have not shot any group with these duplex loads with N120/H4198 that were as tight as the groups shot with the singles, like I said earlier "deer good" only but fast. But there was a time when 2-3" groups at 200 would be great but expectations always raise with any endeavor. I too am going to work some more with N120 as single. It is going to be hard to beat the groups you posted earlier with 63.5gr load H4198, but still fun to look. My groups in general open up with any load when I get above 2800fps. I just keep poking holes and see where it goes. |
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Post by michael on Mar 26, 2011 20:56:59 GMT -5
do you always duplex your loads even for hunting? what do you do about speed loaders for hunting season
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 27, 2011 13:47:41 GMT -5
do you always duplex your loads even for hunting? what do you do about speed loaders for hunting season I did with the .50 because I had to, couldn't get the accuracy I wanted without it. I always had a small bottle and big bottle to help with keeping them separate. Never was that big a deal to carry 2 bottles per load vs one bottle. Couple of the best deer I ever killed (150 incher's) were with the .50 shooting duplex of N110 @ 14gr under 61gr of H322. This load would shoot consistently moa to at least 250yds easily with the 250SST. I never had any issues with the SST terminal performance either but was careful to stay off the shoulder up close. I will not shoot a duplex or multiple powder blends, duplexed or mixed with the .45 unless as I said "I have TO". Was just looking at upper speed duplex vs singles to see what they acted like. While both shot pretty darn good it is not worth the extra trouble, IMO, to duplex in the .45 for a mere 100 - 150 fps, unless your barrel makes you to get the speed or accuracy up to your needs. I was looking at these type loads as an option for tun-ability if needed. |
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Post by michael on Mar 27, 2011 14:45:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the info I'm just so excited to get our stuff back from pac-nor. After shooting an omega for so many years I'm really looking forward to this build especially after reading all the success story
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Post by herman on Mar 29, 2011 18:18:27 GMT -5
Mark and Marty had asked me to try their N120/H4198 loads so today I tried the 13/53 load with the 200 sst again today.
Last week I had a bad day with the savage,I had more blown sabots than I have had in a whole year before.
I have no idea what was going on,before I started trying other loads and blowing sabots I shot a group with 13/53 and got a 3in group so wasn't bad.
I took the rifle home gave it a good cleaning and even changed the vent but it wasn't but .034,don't think that was the problem.
Anyhow went back this morning and it shot pretty good.
I started at 300 yards but took 3 shots to get dialed in on the target,the next 3 went 2.75 in group.I just took my time and shot these 6 shots without cooling the barrel.
Now this makes 3 weeks in a row with the 13/53,
1- 2.8 in group
2-3.00
3-2.75
So this tells me the load is pretty constant.And would make a good deer load.
Also I tried a group with the 195's,only shot 2 because the first 2 were 4 in.apart.
Next I tried 65 grs of IMR 4198.It had shot very good at 100 yds before but I only got a 4 in group with it today at 300yds.
Next went with H4198 at 64 grs,and got a 2.75 in group with it.
Didn't shoot many shots but as far as I could tell I had no blown sabots today.
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Post by deadon on Mar 29, 2011 18:43:14 GMT -5
Man, Herman, I--- re----learned something today from this thread. If I understand you correctly you shot a 2.3" group at 100 yrds and still stuck with it to try at 2 and 3 hundred yards? You are amazing If I remember, years ago, someone telling me "If ya want a 300 yard load, shoot at 300 yrds" Something about the bullet sleeping in the barrel or asleep right out of the barrel or asleep a hundred yrds outta the barrel. Could you or some else explain to an old, brain dead rifleman what I am talking about? I am not pulling anyone's leg, This is no joke, I am serious. Please help, Rusty |
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Post by herman on Mar 29, 2011 19:01:02 GMT -5
Rusty I didn't shoot any at 100 yds today.When I tried the 13/53 several weeks ago I shot a 3-shot group at 100 yds and it went 2 in one hole and the 3rd almost touching.
Only shot all loads at 300 yds today.
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Post by michael on Mar 29, 2011 19:25:33 GMT -5
So I was wondering what kind of bullet drop are you getting at 300 yards?
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Post by Richard on Mar 29, 2011 19:39:00 GMT -5
(If it sounds like I am rambling about bullets going to sleep, its because someone pulled a reply I was commenting on?) &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& I was with Herman today.........as always..........Where did he say he shot a 2.3" group at 100 yards? He shot a 2.7" group at 300? He said he dialed the gun in at 300 and then shot the 300 yard group? All those groups he shot were at 300............Herman would not shot a load at 300 that grouped 2.3 (or where ever that number came from) at 100! And you can say what you want about bullets going to sleep but once a bullet starts on its course, the only way it will cause a longer range groups to become smaller is if the wind blows it in! While a bullet that is unstable at 100 yards might produce a slightly elongated or oblong hole in the target.................then as the bullet travels further out (on its pre directed path) it becomes more stable................it then might produce a more round hole at say 200 or 300 or whatever. A group that starts out at say 100 yards being ONE inch will always be TWO inches at 200 providing no other force (i.e. wind) acts upon it! This is why a 1/2" IBS 100 yard bullseye becomes a 5" 1,000 yd. bullseye.  If groups actually got smaller, they would make the bullsyes smaller?  ? Going to sleep and getting back on to its intended course are two different things. Just because you shoot a load one time at say.......100 yards and it happend to produce a 2" group............Then the next time you shoot it at say...........200 yards and you get a 1.5" or even a 1" group? All that means is that those same shots, if put on a 100 yard target, would have produced a 3/4" or 1/2" group! Now a bowler can throw a ball out to the right and with a reverse spin, have the ball curve back on target.........A pitcher can throw a ball with a curve which is heading for the batter and have it come back over the plate, but a bullet starting in a particular direction will continue on that path barring some type of wind condition. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it! Richard |
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What temps were you shooting in and any sabot disruption?
If groups actually got smaller, they would make the bullsyes smaller?
?