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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 12:46:37 GMT -5
I would not have believed that the 195 Barnes could beat the 200sst for accuracy. But yesterday and today the Barnes smoked the SST across the board.
Let me qualify by saying that I had about 13 older "hard tip" sst and they shot great. No need to post targets as I have already seen I can not duplicate it with bullet available today.
I started off shooting them Friday afternoon setting up the new Pac-Nor barrel. Was very impressed at the consistent 1" groups they shot (old bullets) at with 62gr H4198, even called Marty to tell him how "easy" the gun was to shoot.
THEN went back Saturday morning going to really " work it out and dial it in". Open new package of 200SST and first group shot nearly 3" at 100yds in HB Sabot. Now the new bullets is all that was changed.
First actually thought something had happened to gun the groups had changed so much.
After talking with Dave D. I went back to wring them out and test Barnes and SST side by side. I set the old up beside the new not only are the tips different the bases are also.
Then I noticed that the bases were radius-ed different from one bullet to the next from the same pack also. Looked for this cause Dave mentioned sorting out the flattest made them group some better.
Across the board at all powder weights shot yesterday and this morning the Barnes shot smaller groups than the SST's,,,,,now I seriously doubt this is just my gun likes the Barnes best.
IMO anyone trying to wring out accuracy would be better served with the Barnes than the SST right now.
I got about 60 or so useless bullets it looks like.
Heck, even the XTP's shot considerably better at 100yds and still slightly better at 200yds.. I just sent an email to Hornady asking questions about this too.....they won't pay any attention I know but they have at least heard it.
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 13, 2011 13:11:54 GMT -5
Haven't had a need to do so for a long time, but in the past, have
gotten much better results with Hornady by calling rather than
emailing them.
Have you checked the bullet diameters with the Hornady's? My
old ones check out at a perfect .400" from base to ogive. But I
have a BUNCH of Barnes which are not only under but measure
differently at both ends. They have to be knurled to shoot
accurately. Prior to catching on to the problem, they were giving
me 4" groups -- afterwards, wayyyy under MOA. ;D
Just wondering if that may be yet another problem with your new
Hornady's. ??
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 13:54:43 GMT -5
Haven't had a need to do so for a long time, but in the past, have gotten much better results with Hornady by calling rather than emailing them. Have you checked the bullet diameters with the Hornady's? My old ones check out at a perfect .400" from base to ogive. But I have a BUNCH of Barnes which are not only under but measure differently at both ends. They have to be knurled to shoot accurately. Prior to catching on to the problem, they were giving me 4" groups -- afterwards, wayyyy under MOA. ;D Just wondering if that may be yet another problem with your new Hornady's. ?? The SST measure just fine and actually fit the bore a bit tighter all the way down than the Barnes. But the SST's shot a bit on the wild side, much worse than the older SST's. Something is wrong other than just having a different tip. |
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Post by dave d. on Mar 13, 2011 14:21:25 GMT -5
:)mark i'm glad you are back on track.i'm like you the barnes has always in every gun i've had out performed the sst.i guess me and you are lucky.goodluck with hornady i actually called them about there sst's radius and asked them if they could change them back to the way they original were and they never got back to me.
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Post by Richard on Mar 13, 2011 15:30:28 GMT -5
Hmmmmmmmmmmm? I have to say, that I am having better luck with the SST's? Now, are they the new or the old? A few months back a member offered to sell me about 170 SST's and I did purchase them. I also had some previous bullets in my cabinet. So, I could not tell you which they were? That .054" three shot group a few weeks ago was shot with some form of an SST. Also, I believe Herman has gotten his good 300 yard groups with the SST's and also complains the Barnes do not shoot as good!
Richard
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larry
8 Pointer
Posts: 172
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Post by larry on Mar 13, 2011 16:02:09 GMT -5
:)Hey Mark, Glad you finally broke down and got a 45. I notice you mention a HB sabot. Most folks seem to prefer the harv. light blue sabot, including myself. Just curious, what vel. did you get with the 62 grs. Larry
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Post by Dave W on Mar 13, 2011 16:02:36 GMT -5
I never devoted much time to the SST since I was more concerned with getting the BX to shoot but the BX shot better in my gun also provided it was knurled like Danno said. The SST gave me some great groups but it also gave me some "what the heck was that" shots.
The SST is probably .400, the Bx's I measured were .399 possibly accounting for the slightly snugger fit.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 16:13:58 GMT -5
I never devoted much time to the SST since I was more concerned with getting the BX to shoot but the BX shot better in my gun also provided it was knurled like Danno said. The SST gave me some great groups but it also gave me some "what the heck was that" shots. The SST is probably .400, the Bx's I measured were .399 possibly accounting for the slightly snugger fit. I got decent 2 up to 3" 200yd 5 shot groups but they would be 4 in a 1.5" and one drifter nearly every group and no ryme or reason to direction and would do it at nearly every powder weight but was much more noticeable at loads 61grs and up. Like you said, "where the heck did that come from" shooting them. Shot the best SST group with 60grs H4198 and it was 2.25" 5 shot group. Reproduced it a couple times over the last 3 sessions. Plenty deer good just not as crisp as the Barnes today. Next few trips will tell more. What really got me wondering was that the XTP shot more consistent also. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 16:17:13 GMT -5
:)Hey Mark, Glad you finally broke down and got a 45. I notice you mention a HB sabot. Most folks seem to prefer the harv. light blue sabot, including myself. Just curious, what vel. did you get with the 62 grs. Larry Yes by HB I meant Harvestor light blue not crush rib. I have not had chrono set up to check. I will get some speeds on the better shooting loads a bit later on. |
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larry
8 Pointer
Posts: 172
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Post by larry on Mar 13, 2011 16:23:34 GMT -5
:)My best accuracy with the 200sst was with 57.5 H4198 and a chrono reading of 2625. Not a speed demon but plenty good for deer.
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Post by shooter on Mar 13, 2011 16:26:34 GMT -5
Mark,it amazing what one little change can do for you in these muzzleloader.  |
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Post by Dave W on Mar 13, 2011 16:27:05 GMT -5
I never devoted much time to the SST since I was more concerned with getting the BX to shoot but the BX shot better in my gun also provided it was knurled like Danno said. The SST gave me some great groups but it also gave me some "what the heck was that" shots. The SST is probably .400, the Bx's I measured were .399 possibly accounting for the slightly snugger fit. I got decent 2 up to 3" 200yd 5 shot groups but they would be 4 in a 1.5" and one drifter nearly every group and no ryme or reason to direction and would do it at nearly every powder weight but was much more noticeable at loads 61grs and up. Like you said, "where the heck did that come from" shooting them. Shot the best SST group with 60grs H4198 and it was 2.25" 5 shot group. Reproduced it a couple times over the last 3 sessions. Plenty deer good just not as crisp as the Barnes today. Next few trips will tell more. What really got me wondering was that the XTP shot more consistent also. Doesn't the XTP have the sharp 90* corner at the base like the new BX's? It is one of Dave D's loads but also shot great in my gun-56gr H4198 with the XTP. Great shooting. BTW |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 16:28:50 GMT -5
:)My best accuracy with the 200sst was with 57.5 H4198 and a chrono reading of 2625. Not a speed demon but plenty good for deer. I noticed too that the accuracy was better as I came back down to 59 and 60grs. And probably a good performance speed for the cup & core bullet design too. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 13, 2011 16:31:59 GMT -5
I got decent 2 up to 3" 200yd 5 shot groups but they would be 4 in a 1.5" and one drifter nearly every group and no ryme or reason to direction and would do it at nearly every powder weight but was much more noticeable at loads 61grs and up. Like you said, "where the heck did that come from" shooting them. Shot the best SST group with 60grs H4198 and it was 2.25" 5 shot group. Reproduced it a couple times over the last 3 sessions. Plenty deer good just not as crisp as the Barnes today. Next few trips will tell more. What really got me wondering was that the XTP shot more consistent also. Doesn't the XTP have the sharp 90* corner at the base like the new BX's? It is one of Dave D's loads but also shot great in my gun-56gr H4198 with the XTP. Great shooting. BTW Yes it has the sharp flat base also. IMO the base is the issue and shows up as pressure is increased more than I would have thought. Picking up sabots today I could easily tell the ones shot with the SST and on the upper loads could see were sabot was starting to squeeze by and do not see that with either the barnes or the xtp sabots. |
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Post by deadeye on Mar 13, 2011 20:47:29 GMT -5
Mark,it amazing what one little change can do for you in these muzzleloader. boy,ain't that the truth-usually the "little" things! not to hope mark's wasting $ on the ss't's but i'm rooting for the barnes. |
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Post by sw on Mar 13, 2011 22:09:42 GMT -5
When the 200SSTs first came out, Midway had a # of blems for sale. I bought 2300 and RB bought 5000. I have not bought any since that first year. I also bought 200 Barnes 195s and 100 Barnes 175s not too much later. These are not the newer, flatter based Barnes. My accuracy with all loads, yes even single H-4198 , have shown greater accuracy with the 200 SSTs out both 40 and 45s. I think historically, the Hornadys have outperformed the Barnes but not terminally. Never lost a deer with either bullet out of over 40 shot with a mixture of these(mostly my son), and the terminal effect of the Barnes was significantly superior, IMO. This year I will be hunting in thicker areas, both gun(MLer only) and bow/x-bow. Primarily, I plan to use the Barnes, this year. If the new 200SSTs are not as accurate as the Barnes, then the Barnes will be the better choice in both areas: accuracy and terminal performance. Just my thoughts. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 14, 2011 1:52:20 GMT -5
When the 200SSTs first came out, Midway had a # of blems for sale. I bought 2300 and RB bought 5000. I have not bought any since that first year. I also bought 200 Barnes 195s and 100 Barnes 175s not too much later. These are not the newer, flatter based Barnes. My accuracy with all loads, yes even single H-4198 , have shown greater accuracy with the 200 SSTs out both 40 and 45s. I think historically, the Hornadys have outperformed the Barnes but not terminally. Never lost a deer with either bullet out of over 40 shot with a mixture of these(mostly my son), and the terminal effect of the Barnes was significantly superior, IMO. This year I will be hunting in thicker areas, both gun(MLer only) and bow/x-bow. Primarily, I plan to use the Barnes, this year. If the new 200SSTs are not as accurate as the Barnes, then the Barnes will be the better choice in both areas: accuracy and terminal performance. Just my thoughts. Glad to hear you weigh in here. This being my first in hand with the .45 the first thought thru my mind when I struggled with the SST was I knew you shot them all the time with great results so was wondering if they were the old models you and RB had bought up. I shot them back then with Black Powder guns and they were great, but it looks to me they have changed a lot. |
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Post by jims on Mar 14, 2011 6:42:27 GMT -5
New but apparently not improved? Why change what works well?
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Post by deadon on Mar 19, 2011 8:17:00 GMT -5
Has anyone heard from Hornady about the new 200 gr sst not shooting as good as the old? I emailed them this AM and will call them Monday.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 19, 2011 10:14:36 GMT -5
Has anyone heard from Hornady about the new 200 gr sst not shooting as good as the old? I emailed them this AM and will call them Monday. Sent them 2 emails last week, zero response. I called them and basically acted as tho they could care less. I am just hoping enough shooters recognize this and contact them enough to create a change. I don't have a problem with the flex tip but the base is to round and the pressure surface of the base to small diameter. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2011 10:32:51 GMT -5
Has anyone heard from Hornady about the new 200 gr sst not shooting as good as the old? I emailed them this AM and will call them Monday. Sent them 2 emails last week, zero response. I called them and basically acted as tho they could care less. I am just hoping enough shooters recognize this and contact them enough to create a change. I don't have a problem with the flex tip but the base is to round and the pressure surface of the base to small diameter. Could you post a picture that would compare the new and the old?.....I bought a couple hundred a little over a year ago and would like to see what I've got.... Thanks, Zen |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 19, 2011 10:53:43 GMT -5
Sent them 2 emails last week, zero response. I called them and basically acted as tho they could care less. I am just hoping enough shooters recognize this and contact them enough to create a change. I don't have a problem with the flex tip but the base is to round and the pressure surface of the base to small diameter. Could you post a picture that would compare the new and the old?.....I bought a couple hundred a little over a year ago and would like to see what I've got.... Thanks, Zen All I have now is the new, shot up all the old. Maybe someone who has both could get pic side by side. They have always had some radius at base but not as much as now. |
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Post by etj401 on Mar 19, 2011 15:01:54 GMT -5
The newer model of the 200 sst has a larger radius than the old hard tip. The 200 sst would not shoot well in my 45 Pacnor using the Harverster Blue sabots. The 200 xtp would shoot great with the Blue E-Z sabots. I switched to the Harverster Blue Crushed Rib and accuracy improved greatly! Most loads were around an inch or under at 100 yds. My current load of 63 gr of IMR 4198 will shoot 3/4 in all day long with the crushed rib and the 200 sst. I didn't like the bullets performance. I switched to the Barnes and also had to switch back to the harverster Blue E-Z for the Barnes to shoot. The Barnes shoot better than the sst in my Pacnor. Try using the crushed rib sabots with the sst.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2011 16:38:43 GMT -5
don't know if this helps any at all but here is what I see: Compared to XTP base   The flat portion of the 200 SST base ranges from about .290 to .300 (i measured 5 near as I can and they are a bit different from one to another). But sure no "larger" .300". I measured several for the "height" of the radius and this is real hard to measure but the radius is at least .050" tall from the base before the bullet gets back to .400".  The SST in your photo looks like the ones I've got... Are they the old or new? Thanks, Zen |
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Post by spaniel on Mar 19, 2011 16:58:09 GMT -5
I've shot both "old" and "new" and they perform indistinguishably in my gun.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 19, 2011 17:16:29 GMT -5
I've shot both "old" and "new" and they perform indistinguishably in my gun. What load / speed combo? They shoot decent at mild loads put soon as I try to get anymore from them they open up groups quick! But still do not shoot as good as the old ones for me at either end of the spectrum. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 19, 2011 17:18:43 GMT -5
don't know if this helps any at all but here is what I see: The SST in your photo looks like the ones I've got... Are they the old or new? Thanks, Zen NEW model in the photos. |
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 19, 2011 17:38:06 GMT -5
If you have very many of them, I'd still try knurling, at least out to
.401 or even possibly to .4015. A better grip on the side could very
well compensate for the area loss in diameter at the base. Just
knurl a trio to try for a group.
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Post by Richard on Mar 19, 2011 19:23:11 GMT -5
Savage Shooter............do you have anyone who could "turn" the bases flat in a lathe? Maybe just a few for comparison? They can be easily grabbed with an ordinary 3-jaw chuck (just slightly snugged up) and the base flattened with one pass. That should tell the difference. I may cut a few and try them this week and let you know if I see any difference. If you recall, I did it last week with the sabot less 200 gr. FTX's and it did not improve. But thats a different animal  Richard |
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Post by spaniel on Mar 19, 2011 21:20:04 GMT -5
I've shot both "old" and "new" and they perform indistinguishably in my gun. What load / speed combo? They shoot decent at mild loads put soon as I try to get anymore from them they open up groups quick! But still do not shoot as good as the old ones for me at either end of the spectrum. 15/50 AA5744/H322 duplex running 2770 fps. My light blue Harvestor sabots have never looked remotely strained by this load. |
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