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Post by mountainam on Mar 9, 2011 21:20:47 GMT -5
I was wondering if anyone has heard of it or yet tried it? I was at Denny's Sporting Goods and the Pioneer sales rep. was touting the new BP sub he called SUPER POWDER. It's like BH209 only easier to ignite. 100grs volume weighs in the ballpark of 60grs. He said that 100grs yields 1800-1900fps with a 250gr saboted bullet. Says it shares a lot of properties of smokeless. And it is in the burn rate ballpark of IMR3031. I guess the best news is that it's $16-$17 a bottle---- a REAL 1lb.bottle. Also clean burning. This is the first I've heard of it. The rep told Denny that it's available NOW.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Mar 9, 2011 21:41:35 GMT -5
If all that is true, I'll buy a case.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 9, 2011 21:56:22 GMT -5
After many inflated claims and poor results from APP/JSG i am very skeptical until i try it. In my area, regular JSG/APP is over $21 a bottle so i don't see it selling that much cheaper in my area. It does sound like a totally different powder though. The old one was about 84gr weighted for 100gr by volume.
They have been talking about the new loose Super for a while now so hopefully it has been well tested.
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Post by minst7877 on Mar 9, 2011 21:59:35 GMT -5
American Pioneer Powder, Jim Shockey Gold, Same company How many have had problems with consistency with the powders from this company. APP's web site doesn't differentiate between them and a super powder.
DC
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Post by mike3132 on Mar 10, 2011 9:42:55 GMT -5
I had about 300 fps variation with the same load using APP FF but when I switched to 3f the variation dropped to 100 fps and accuracy was a lot better. I haven't shot any BH209 just because of the price but out of the rest of the BP subs APP is hands down the cleanest Ive shot. Mike
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 10, 2011 11:55:54 GMT -5
Sounds like they are on the BH209 path using more of a smokeless powder. It would be interesting to see the MSDS sheet or the patent application.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Mar 10, 2011 12:58:40 GMT -5
I hope BH209 has some competition soon, I love the stuff but it's expensive for a 10 oz. jug. If it were a true pound, I would feel much better about spending that kind of money.
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Post by mountainam on Mar 10, 2011 13:00:28 GMT -5
Rossman40, That's what the sales rep made it sound like. If that's true it will be one way to get the price of BH209 somewhat in line.
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 10, 2011 22:40:00 GMT -5
They actually announced it last summer, it is just now trickling down to retailers. I'm surprised RW or TB hasn't put the write up on it, of course both have strong ties with Western Powders. With Blackmag out of the picture for now and everybody else loosing customers to BH209 it will get interesting.
There was talk of Alliant/Federal taking up Blackmag and they filed a patent a few years back on a combined bullet, sabot and powder charge for muzzleloaders.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 10, 2011 23:28:52 GMT -5
Considering they don't recommend leaving it in a flask very long, i would bet its hygroscopic just like the old powder. I doubt it is anything like BH209 in that regard and contains no nitro based products. I dont see much load data either for a powder that has been in development for roughly a year or more. I don't even see any data for bullets over 250gr or charges over 120grV. The 50cal load data with a 240gr bullet is barely breaking 1900fps with 120grV.
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Post by falcon on Mar 12, 2011 8:46:32 GMT -5
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 14, 2011 13:01:25 GMT -5
The hearing to reduce the fines should be this month. But with the OSHA findings you know there will be some serious civil suits following for the deaths. With multi-million dollars law suits pending MDM is pretty much done for. But MDM basicly licensed BlackMag so maybe the owners will try to get some one else to peddle it. But with the success of BH209 it will take a lot to knock it down. I was told Hodgden was behind getting BH209 getting banned in New Mexico and they are trying to get it banned in several other states right now.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 14, 2011 13:25:54 GMT -5
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Post by 10ga on Mar 16, 2011 9:58:42 GMT -5
I was told Hodgden was behind getting BH209 getting banned in New Mexico and they are trying to get it banned in several other states right now. Seems like it would be easier to develope a better powder for BP sub than pay a bunch of suits for that kind of antics. Of course the fringe jacket buckskin guys are so self righeous they fall right into line with that kind of, ban it, thinking. Guess this is what happens when MBAs run companies instead of people who want to produce good products. I have given up on subs for my smokey guns. I use the real thing, Swiss, Goex, KIK, and Black Diamond BLACK POWDER. I don't have anything that I can use BH209 in xcept my SMLs, and that dosen't make any sense. I'll use the BH209 if I go to CO or other places where smokeless is regulated away for ML season. Otherwise it's traditional BP or nitrocellulose based powder. 10 |
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Post by falcon on Mar 16, 2011 10:34:46 GMT -5
For some reason the APP website has been discontinued. Maybe they didn't pay their bill. This site popped up on the web. banddpowder.com/ |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 16, 2011 12:41:50 GMT -5
For some reason the APP website has been discontinued. Maybe they didn't pay their bill. This site popped up on the web. banddpowder.com/And Jim Shockey has removed all links to APP from his website unless i missed them. He didnt really use it that much anyway.  |
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Post by sabotloader on Mar 16, 2011 15:20:27 GMT -5
OK - so now I am wondering... are they still even in business? Has anyone tried calling them?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2011 15:39:23 GMT -5
They still have a Facebook page but no breaking news there. I tried calling the number I found and it goes to voicemail.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 16, 2011 16:01:09 GMT -5
Try contacting Shockey. i bet he can help.  |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 16, 2011 23:35:55 GMT -5
Well i checked out Shockey's site again and no mention of APP or the new Super Powder anywhere i could find including the sponsors page. His hunt in The Peoples Republic of Iran last December was an interesting article if you like reading about having to bribe the local mayor to hunt even though you have permits. No mention of the new "Super powder" on the bandpowder website either but i thought this was interesting. It didn't state what kind of moisture?  |
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 17, 2011 11:55:07 GMT -5
The way I understood APP was making the Goex Pinnacle but when Hodgden bought Goex in 2009 they pretty much killed the Pinnacle line since it was competition to Pyrodex and Triple 7. I'm still wondering why they kept the IMR White Hots. Maybe because they are just a white version of T7 and there are suckers out there that think the are buying something new and better.
So maybe APP is on the ropes and hoping the Super powder will save them. At least the plant hasn't blown up. You have to remember that APP is ran by the same guy that started up Clean Shot and got his butt sued off by Hodgden. Maybe they are in such bad shape they didn't send Shockey his check this month and he is POed. Who knows...
I wouldn't put it past Hodgden to pull dirty tricks, it is modern business. They tried "dropping a dime" to the DOT on MDM/BlackMag to stop shipments. As Tony Knight found out when he tried getting the Savage 10ML banned all it takes is a hint to the "buckskin boys" (traditionalist) to get them worked up and calling the statehouse.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 17, 2011 13:24:51 GMT -5
I came up with nothing on Google except high praise from Wakeman about Tony.
Could you give me a online reference to this please. Ive heard Toby Bridges tried something like this but nothing about Tony Knight.
Even Randy Wakeman speaks very highly of Tony Knight so if its true, that would be very surprising considering his close ties to Savage.
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 17, 2011 18:18:08 GMT -5
There was something said back in 2000-01 that there were moves in several states to ban smokeless MLs and that Tony was stirring the pot. If you read some of his statements from that time he was pretty down on on the Savage ML. TB used to work for Tony in the mid 90s and even brought Tony the Balls prototype first and Tony refused to even think about producing it. For those of you who weren't around back then even RW came on this board and called us all a bunch of crazies that were going to blow ourselves up being so stupid to use smokeless in a ML. Another one was RW's then BF Cecil at PR, in early 2001 I sent him a email asking if his bullets would take the 2400fps being pushed out the 10ML smokeless. He sent me back a flaming note, that you probly could still smell the smoke from, saying what a idiot I was using smokeless in any ML regardless of who made it. If you went on any of the boards like Graybeards and asked about smokeless loads or advice you were flamed.
But those were the early days and the times and people can change.
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Post by falcon on Mar 18, 2011 19:39:16 GMT -5
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 18, 2011 21:17:01 GMT -5
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Post by sabotloader on Mar 18, 2011 21:53:28 GMT -5
GM54-120Just putting this in both threads.... 250 grain max bullets.... I know what that is suggesting to me, but what are you guys thinking when they say 100 max 250 max? The web site shows the old 2f powder shooting 120 grains and a 240 grain bullet velocity @ 1905fps But if you look at the velocities that 100 grains was giving the 250 grain bullets.... it is not that bad in fact that is good velocity. Dang close to 2000fps. That is real close to what I am getting with 110 grains of BH - problem is how inflated are their numbers.... and on the other hand it is far better than any other APP that I have ever shot. 
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Post by sqezer on Mar 19, 2011 15:51:01 GMT -5
I stoped at the local sporting goods store this morning and JSG SUPER POWDER was on the shelf for $22.95 a jug. He can get as much as he wants.
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 20, 2011 17:40:28 GMT -5
I'm glad that it appears that APP is still alive and kicking. Hodgden would pretty much control the BP sub market if they faltered.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 20, 2011 17:52:09 GMT -5
Ive got a pound coming this week from a local shop in case the online source is a bust. They have a pretty bad track record if you look up some reviews about their shipping times ect and about trying to make you pay a restocking fee even if they didn't ship it yet.
I covered my bases just in case.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 20, 2011 20:21:51 GMT -5
Its not looking good according to someone that found a local source.
Sounds a lot like the old powder or maybe worse.
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Its also 2FG, hopefully it does not look like the old 2FG.