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Post by deadon on Feb 23, 2011 20:46:32 GMT -5
I shot my 50 cal approx 300 times using every recommended load and every other load I could think of. During this time I read everything here at Dougs I could. I heard over and over go 45 and you will eliminate fliers. If I shoot two bullets touching and the third bullet is 1 or 1 1/4 away, to me that is a flier. If I shoot two bullets 2 inches apart and the third is touching the first, the second shot was a flier. Since I got my 45, the groups are smaller but I still have fliers. Question---- what is your definition of a flier? Thanks to all, Rusty
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 23, 2011 21:08:38 GMT -5
I shot my 50 cal approx 300 times using every recommended load and every other load I could think of. During this time I read everything here at Dougs I could. I heard over and over go 45 and you will eliminate fliers. If I shoot two bullets touching and the third bullet is 1 or 1 1/4 away, to me that is a flier. If I shoot two bullets 2 inches apart and the third is touching the first, the second shot was a flier. Since I got my 45, the groups are smaller but I still have fliers. Question---- what is your definition of a flier? Thanks to all, Rusty Any shot not were I "expected" it to be. ;D |
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 23, 2011 21:09:21 GMT -5
A flyer is the one outside of the group for no known, recognizable reason. Sabot pushed down the barrel like all the others, barrel in same condition......everything known is the same, yet one goes outside the group, whether it be #1, #2 or #3. I DO NOT count a shot in which I "pull" as being a flyer (nor do I count it as being in the group). I just chaulk that group up to me blowing the group. I haven't had any "flyers" from the PacNor .45. Thought so at one point, but found that the Barnes 195's had different diameters, which then became a "known, recognizable reason".  |
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Post by ozark on Feb 23, 2011 21:16:43 GMT -5
deadon, sometimes there are flyers caused by the ammo or the rifle. Often while shooting at targets I have a shot that I am just not sure of. In other words I couldn't call the shot perfect or otherwise. Often these shots end up out ot the group. The only times I get worried about the rifle when I call a shot perfect and it flys off in some direction. I have never owned and fired a rifle that I didn't get a flyer now and then I am almost sure that I am the cause. Not the rifle. Ben
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 21:28:42 GMT -5
Rusty, I seldom ever have fliers with the pacnor barrel. I think I am going to have to convince a few people here of that.
have you bedded and pillared your gun?
what kind of rest do you shoot from?
what about your bases and rings?
I have some suspicions about fliers in the savage and here they are.
1. stress free bedding::: when I pillared my gun I first bedded it and then milled the pillar holes out to 5/8 so that the pillars had some free play. I bolted the pillars to the action and then set them while in place and torqued to the action. after it dried I then cut the bedding away and rebedded it again. I also floated the action behind the front trigger guard screw.... a stress free bed.
2.the reciever on the savage is definately not flat......another problem area....... i used a bedded farrell base, again, no stress.
3.I use a spinjag on my rod and a loader as well. the rod has a nylon bushing that fits in the barrel while loading, hence...... no misalignment.
4. I shoot from a leadsled and have a very good 2lb trigger.
You might already have your gun set up in a similar fashion and if so I dont know what to tell you. all i know is that I eliminated every possible problem area I could when I built mine and it seems to work very well. your problem could be any one of the things above, these are just what worked for me.
If i shoot with a cool barrel and let it stay relatively cool I almost always shoot ragged holes @ 100. if i rush it I definately WILL have fliers or if i use a cool rod and swab between shots my groups will open up. MY BARREL MUST BE FOULED TO SHOOT WELL......hope Im maybe of some help....Bill
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Post by ET on Feb 24, 2011 7:41:05 GMT -5
1. stress free bedding::: when I pillared my gun I first bedded it and then milled the pillar holes out to 5/8 so that the pillars had some free play. I bolted the pillars to the action and then set them while in place and torqued to the action. after it dried I then cut the bedding away and rebedded it again. I also floated the action behind the front trigger guard screw.... a stress free bed. Bill HillBill Have to ask about the 5/8” hole drilling of the pillar holes. I can picture using 5/16” for some additional play and still use the original bolts, which have a head diameter of about 3/8” for the 10ML-II. Ed |
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Post by deadeye on Feb 24, 2011 9:08:26 GMT -5
Rusty, I seldom ever have fliers with the pacnor barrel. I think I am going to have to convince a few people here of that. have you bedded and pillared your gun? what kind of rest do you shoot from? what about your bases and rings? I have some suspicions about fliers in the savage and here they are. 1. stress free bedding::: when I pillared my gun I first bedded it and then milled the pillar holes out to 5/8 so that the pillars had some free play. I bolted the pillars to the action and then set them while in place and torqued to the action. after it dried I then cut the bedding away and rebedded it again. I also floated the action behind the front trigger guard screw.... a stress free bed. 2.the reciever on the savage is definately not flat......another problem area....... i used a bedded farrell base, again, no stress. 3.I use a spinjag on my rod and a loader as well. the rod has a nylon bushing that fits in the barrel while loading, hence...... no misalignment. 4. I shoot from a leadsled and have a very good 2lb trigger. You might already have your gun set up in a similar fashion and if so I dont know what to tell you. all i know is that I eliminated every possible problem area I could when I built mine and it seems to work very well. your problem could be any one of the things above, these are just what worked for me. If i shoot with a cool barrel and let it stay relatively cool I almost always shoot ragged holes @ 100. if i rush it I definately WILL have fliers or if i use a cool rod and swab between shots my groups will open up. MY BARREL MUST BE FOULED TO SHOOT WELL......hope Im maybe of some help....Bill hillbill,you dont have to convince me your last paragraph explains you have taken the time in detail & observance & make detailed adjustments that your gun likes. i have no reason to doubt you do it w/sabots also unless you are not a "bench rest shooter" ;D too many people just throw gazillions of round downrange instead of slowing down & learning the load & gun. it usually takes a lot of dedicated time & such to reach those bugholes & when you do it is rewarding. deadon-you will find it eventually,best of luck! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 10:45:49 GMT -5
ET, Im talking about the holes in the stock. the factory pillar gets drilled out and new aluminum ones added. I drill them oversized then bolt the pillars to the action with proper torque and then set it in the stock. the action has already been bedded so it cradles the action in position and the pillars are floating in the oversize holes till the bedding around them sets up. this way there is 0 stress on the action. then I remove the bedding and rebed....Bill
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Post by edge on Feb 24, 2011 11:06:47 GMT -5
IMO, you shoot a reasonable number of shots, say 50 shots.
Look at the total group and most will land within a certain distance from the group center. IMO, that is your actual group size and a few will be well outside that group and those are probably flyers.
Back to your initial post.
If you took an infinite amount of time to shoot the 3 shot group would you still have that one shot away from the others without any explanation? If so then IMO it is NOT a flyer!
I bet that if you shot my hypothetical 50 shot group that there would be 10 shots that would be a similar distance from the others and then there would be one or two that might be much further away. IMO, those are the true flyers.
To say that a flyer is any shot away from a two shot group is like saying anything that opens a single hole is a flyer ;D
edge.
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Post by Richard on Feb 24, 2011 12:14:48 GMT -5
Like hillbill, I have spent a lot of time with the bedding and overall construction of my rifle. For a Savage, I consider that I have about the best of the best. The custom thumbhole has a forend that is some 2.5" wide and thick enough to contain a 2" bull barrel.........so not flex there. My bedding is, in my opinion, as good as any and of the same quality that I do all stocks I have worked on. My trigger is Rifle Basix set to 1 3/4lbs. I use a Farrel one piece base with Burris Tactical 6 screw rings. The scope is Leupold 6.5 x 20 Varmint with added Bullseye "Enhancer" which bring the power up to about 30X. My lead sled has been totally modified to eliminate all that wobble and it rides on a guided base which still allows it to recoil/slide rearward somewhat. I dare say it is as stable as my tri-pod CF benchrest set up. Shooter induced flyers are practically non-existant. What all this has done is to make my five shot groups much smaller. However, within those groups are what I consider equipment and/or weather related flyers. You have no control over an imbalanced bullet, faulty sabot, wind (you know, the stuff you don't really see unless working with a number of sensitive wind flags.........which I guarantee the majority of shooters, not into serious benchrest, do not use  ) mirage, the shifting of the sun's angle............ There are just a lot of little things that can cause that one bullet to leave the main group. So, if I happen to have five shots in say 1.3" but four are 3/4" then I have to contend with the fact my total group is 1.3"? Call it a flyer or call it what it is...........the ability of you and your gun to put five or three bullets in as tight a group as you and your equipment allow. To say on any given day you can just go out and shoot a five shot 1/2" group is un realistic. As much as Herman and myself shoot, we just don't feel comfortable saying: "Our guns are capable of shooting a 1/2" group at will!" Now I may be adding Herman's words to this but based on our discussions at the range, I believe if he reads this, he will agree. Just my humble opinion Richard |
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Post by ET on Feb 24, 2011 13:34:43 GMT -5
ET, Im talking about the holes in the stock. the factory pillar gets drilled out and new aluminum ones added. I drill them oversized then bolt the pillars to the action with proper torque and then set it in the stock. the action has already been bedded so it cradles the action in position and the pillars are floating in the oversize holes till the bedding around them sets up. this way there is 0 stress on the action. then I remove the bedding and rebed....Bill Sorry, got turned around with that one. Thanks for your patience to clarify the intended point. Ed |
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Post by boarhog on Feb 24, 2011 17:53:35 GMT -5
IMHO, everyone has to decide for himself what size group is satisfactory. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I would regularly shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups with my old Rem 700 30-06. That was with bedded action, lapped barrel, tuned trigger, and loads it liked. I was also pretty deadly with it on running shots at deer and hogs. Flash forward 35 years! Whether it is age alone, or the buckets of medication my Dr has me taking to stay alive, I'm nowhere near as steady as I usta be, don't have the greatest vision, and not as driven to work that hard for accuracy. I wasn't satisfied with how my first Savage ML10-2 shot, so it now wears a 45 Pac-Nor barrel. I like "Bug Hole Groups" as well as anyone, but nowadays, I am pretty satisfied with the 1.5-2" groups I normally shoot with it. More than enough accuracy for me to have the confidence to take shots out to about 300 yards. My longest shot at deer to date (several hundred deer and hogs), with any rifle, is 284 yards. Not long ago, I had a fabulous group going. The first four shots were a ragged 5/8" hole, but the fifth shot plunked in about 2" out of the group. Why? I don't have a clue! It loaded, and felt, just like the first four. The sight picture and trigger break felt good. It's just a %#** muzzleloader!
Boarhog
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 24, 2011 19:49:48 GMT -5
+1 Boarhog....It's hard to chase 1/2 moa with a booming ML shooting marginal bullets. 1-2 inches is great for my average 30-150 yd shots at deer in the woods. Been a long time since I missed.
To the point of this thread.....groups can be made many ways. I make mine to try and be ready for a "hunting" shot....some make theirs for a match. The best of both worlds is great shooting loads that always prints where they are supposed to....get 'em how you can.
A great woodsman can do a lot of damage with a 2 MOA gun/load. A great target shooter can lose every time with 1 MOA gun/load.
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Post by edge on Feb 24, 2011 20:11:51 GMT -5
Technically, to get back to the initial point, I have to ask this "you have a perfect rifle so any bullet that does not go through the same hole MUST be a flyer" OK, that is not true so why is the bullet that lands 1 1/2 inches from your first two shots a flyer? Perhaps the third shot is where five more shots would go and the first two are the flyers  I don't know, but there is too small of a sample to guess the group center or how big it really is! There is another board on the net that is a bit full of themselves and calls themselves snipers, but if you post anything less than a 10 shot group you will be banned for a week! Sorry Richard ;D edge. |
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 25, 2011 2:07:16 GMT -5
Your not going to get every round thru the same exact hole, your going to get some dispersion. You can measure it and call it Probable Error. In the artillery we dealt mainly with Range Probable Error (PEr) and Deflection Probable Error (PEd). If you put it into rifle shooting the deflection would be horizontal dispersion and the range would be vertical dispersion. Some of the vertical and horizontal dispersion can have the same causes but in the vertical you also have velocity inconsistencies to deal with. What you have to determine is what you might call a flyer could be a normal round in the dispersion pattern. We will just think circular for a moment and lets say you shoot a perfect 100 shot string and 50 of the shots lands within 1", 32 will be in the 1-2", 14 will be 2-3" and 4 shots will be out there in the 3-4" distance. If you shoot just a 3 shot group and you get two of the 50% that lands within 1" and one of the 4% that lands over 3" away you would be quick to say it is flyer. Of course you just keep shooting till you get the roll of the dice and get 3 shots from the 50% group.
Then again shooting a 5 or 10 shot group and have things keep consistent is tough, look at the benchrest guys. It takes a lot of work to keep things tight. You have to remember that interior, transitional, and exterior ballistics all directly affect the accuracy. Tightening the gun up is only part of it, just like tightening up the shooter. I was once told a .5 MOA rifle won't help a 5 MOA shooter. A artillery line is "To ensure accuracy, we must strive to account for and minimize those factors that cause round-to-round variations". If you just look at the interior ballistics side,
Minor variations in the weight of the bullet. Even how round it is, the balance and variation of the Center of Gravity (CG) can effect the stability of the bullet once it exits the bore and can effect MV.
Differences in the rate of ignition of the propellant, which can be effected by moisture content and temperature of the propellant.
Variations in the ramming pressure of the bullet/sabot (projectile).
Variations in the temperature and condition of the bore from shot to shot. I know one shooter that would actually change his powder weight for rounds in a 10 shot string to compensate.
As far as exterior ballistics are you going to get the exact same atmospheric conditions for every shot? Then differences in MV will change the amount of change so it is a double whamy.
Then from the primer back, how tight is the rifle?
Richard briefly mentioned sighting, are you putting a 1" crosshair on a 1/4" line? Is your scope crosshair staying on the POA or does it bounce a 1/2 MOA?
Then there is shooter form which can be minimized with a good rest but then the "Nonuniform reactions to firing stress" (recoil) still apply.
As we used to say in the Army, accuracy is nothing more then coagulation of the fecal matter.
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Post by orionsoracle on Feb 25, 2011 5:43:57 GMT -5
Great post Rossman!! Don't know where you come up with it,but it makes sense and makes for some great reading and learning ;D
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Post by deadon on Feb 25, 2011 14:21:40 GMT -5
Thanks guys, I guess I will have to learn to be "not so particular"
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Post by Richard on Feb 25, 2011 19:14:50 GMT -5
Well, I am glad to see that some of the serious shooter/experimenter/mentors are agreeing with what I have been talking about! So is Richard doubtful when I hear "my gun can shoot 1/2" groups all the time?" Your darn right I am! There are just too many variables to make those sort of claims and in particular, with a muzzle loader. And as another shooter expounded about his gun shooting one inch groups at 200 yards.........When, in his own words (paraphrased) One time he and a friend worked up a load and the friend, shooting his gun, shot a five shot one inch group at 200 yards, but not further testing was done......................Not hardly a gun that can shoot those one inch groups all the time. I am tickled pink when I get a five shot 3/4 to 1" 100 yard, 2" 200 yard group and a 3 to 4" five shot 300 yard group! And Edge.........I agree................10 shots is better than five shots. The larger the sampling, the more conclusive the results. And yes, the first shot does not always go into the group.......very often it IS the flyer!! As Wilms indicated, as long as your "group" prints where you want it, that's what counts. Richard |
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) mirage, the shifting of the sun's angle............ There are just a lot of little things that can cause that one bullet to leave the main group. So, if I happen to have five shots in say 1.3" but four are 3/4" then I have to contend with the fact my total group is 1.3"? Call it a flyer or call it what it is...........the ability of you and your gun to put five or three bullets in as tight a group as you and your equipment allow. To say on any given day you can just go out and shoot a five shot 1/2" group is un realistic. As much as Herman and myself shoot, we just don't feel comfortable saying: "Our guns are capable of shooting a 1/2" group at will!" Now I may be adding Herman's words to this but based on our discussions at the range, I believe if he reads this, he will agree.
