Sabots, as good as it going to get?

[artjr338wm]

This question is for those out there far more knowledgeable about sabots than myself. I was wondering if we smokeless users have any reason to hope that any improvements in a sabots ability to handle higher pressures is coming any time soon from either MMP or Harvester.

I am convinced that once you have developed a accurate load or loads, and you are doing all other things correct, it is sabot failure above all else that is the root cause of nearly all accuracy issues concerning reaching and maintaining consistent accuracy.

When one thinks of it, sabot failure is the one factor we can not control once he have taken all other precautions. I mean I can now control just about every factor that affects my accuracy, except sabot failure.

I have been hoping that MMP or Harvester will produce a composite for sabots that all but eliminates the problem of blown sabots if external temps are not a factor. But given the fact we smokeless shooters make up but a small % of all muzzleloaders I doubt producing such a sabot would be worth the cost of doing so to MMP or Harvester.

This for all I know might be a nearly impossible goal given the heat and pressures involved and the fact a sabot is and must remain only slightly thicker than paper thin for most of it's design.

Any and all thought appreciated.
Arthur.

[whyohe]

IMO we are at the max. also i feel that the sabot is and can be a "saftey valve". also i beleave you are right that the smokless shooter is a small percent of what they sell and may not be cost effective for them to test and manufacturer. i think they have to becareful, if they make them too durable and too strong then some may push the gun to its limits in pressure and accidents can occure that can be harmful or even fatal.

plastic is plastic and it will be compramized by heat. yes some are more durable to higher temps but then they could be harder to load and how would they react to very cold temps. i am no chemist so to these questions i have no answer. i know edge made his own sabots from a type of pvc i do beleave but he had to cut the rifling grooves in it to load. I beleave we are actually at a very good spot with what we have. we can use vegi/wonder wads to help with preventing sabot failure wich can be used by some that want those higher speeds.

[Richard]

Art..............The way I look at it is like this: Probably 90% of the members on this board are deer hunters, right? And probably 90% of those 90% are probably never going to shoot at a deer past 250 yards (give or take few feet ;D) With the quality sabots that Harvester has, failure with reasonable loads that will take you to 300 yards or so, should not be a problem? For the other 10% looking to exceed 300 yards, there is the sabot less route and people like Deadeye are providing good solid information. He definitely has my attention with these Parker "gold nuggets "
Keep those 195 Barnes under 2800 fps and barrel cool and you got a 300 yard deer getter (and no blown sabots)
Richard

[tar12]

Reality is we as smokeless shooters are a very small minority in the big picture as far as sabot manufactures sales go. The 2 main sabot suppliers are MMP and Harvester.Del from MMP has made it clear that he has no intentions of reformulating for a tougher sabot as the majority of his sales are to BP shooters.There is no incentive for him to do so.Unless a new company pops up or Harvester is swayed to make a change do not look for anything new anytime soon.

[alphaburnt]

What about these PVC sabots I have read somebody on here makes? Too expensive or too much labor to produce at a reasonable price? I have never even seen one, have any of you guys?

[dave d.]

:)edge makes the pvc sabots on a cnc. He could answer on cost but I think it could be costly. Plus since they are rigid they need to be rifled so you could load them. With the different bore sizes and twist it could be a task.

[fletch]

My idea is to change the rifling. I feel you need to find a different combination of lands and groves. More would be better like the micro grove of the handi rifle. this would give more holding power on a soft sabot while it was twisted down the barrel.
you might in turn be able to use a harder plastic.

[edge]

IMO, there are a few different problems with the current supply of sabots.

1) The sabot base is not capable of using small diameter bullets without the bullet drilling the base;

2) IMO, most inaccuracy comes from the bullet not staying straight in the bore. The material is not strong enough to completely contain the pressure evenly on the sabot base which allows yawing in the bore.

Now since most have chosen the 1:22 in a 45 and the Savage has a 1:24 twist you really can't get great rifle bullets anyway!

Yes, you could use the 180 grain Hornady .358 SSP bullet and you might even get the 200 grainer to stabilize but that is about it.

Here is an old post from the old board about my 2003 sabot testing and hunting:

Jun 19, 2008 23:45:26 GMT -5 nimrodrx said:

SNIP

Edge, were you using a duplex sabot or PR's .50/35 sabot when you found success with the 180 SSP?

Unfortunately, this took place before this board was around, on OL'Green, so the original thread is not here. I have written about it in the past so I'll just quote that

Jan 25, 2008 8:49:53 GMT -5 edge said:

Back on Old Green, I posted about shooting a buck on the last day of the season 2004 shooting a 35 caliber 180 grain Hornady SSP with my Savage.

This was using a Harvester 50 sabot and nylon inner sabot and an aluminum disk/washer inside the Harvester sabot:



The two main problems with shooting sub 45 caliber bullets is the lack of support at the base and sides of the bullet.

PE type plastics are just not strong enough to overcome the inertia of the bullet, and once the sabot stretches, even a very little bit, you will drill the sabot.
Back in 2004 I likened this to you standing next to a race car and holding onto the bumper. When the light turns green the car accelerates. If you are holing on then you are dragged down the strip, if you let go, even for a fraction of a second, you can never catch the bumper again. If you were a bullet inside of a sabot, you just made a hole in the sabot base, drilled the sabot!

So now the problem is twofold, support the base, AND now with a much thicker section of plastic between the bullet and bore ( not to mention a reduced bearing surfaces, prevent the yawing of the bullet in the bore.

IMO, this requires a rigid inner sabot or a totally rigid sabot. The inner sabot is most likely the only way to do this on a mass scale due the differences with bore diameters.

edge.

The results:

entrance and exit:

Someone asked what the PVC sabots I currently use look like.
Here are some .308 Accubond - .458 sabots:



edge.

[jims]

Every time I see those edge sabots I get envious of those things. Nice work.

[fletch]

www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
Link to info about marlin's micro grove barrels

[Richard]

Actually, I think the micro groves would strip more easily then what we presently have
Yup, I shot five of Edges sabot/bullets and they do shoot. I still have five I am "hoarding ;D"
Richard