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Post by rangeball on Jan 11, 2011 11:45:45 GMT -5
Richard's recent post and traces have left me with questions. I shoot N110 in my .50 and blow sabots above 42 gr (depending on bullet). Richard said he shot up to 55 gr with saboted .40s without sabot failure.
Is bullet weight the likely difference? Any other thoughts? Awful hard to argue with 2900fps with a single powder.
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Post by dave d. on Jan 11, 2011 13:00:30 GMT -5
:)range I don't know if that much n110 can be used without blowing sabots unless Richard rubs his magic on it ;D. I think you would have to follow his shooting procedure to duplicate.
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Post by Jon on Jan 11, 2011 17:34:20 GMT -5
I don't mean to step on any one's toe's but I think what Richard was shooting was a 40cal. sabot bullet in his 45cal.
Jon
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Post by edge on Jan 11, 2011 17:40:46 GMT -5
I don't mean to step on any one's toe's but I think what Richard was shooting was a 40cal. sabot bullet in his 45cal. Jon Correct, he is shooting a .45 caliber PacNor...to avoid any confusions. edge. |
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Post by Richard on Jan 11, 2011 17:49:42 GMT -5
NO magic wand! They just worked for me? But as you can see, why shoot 36,000 psi (or whatever it actually is?) to get 2940 fps when you can shoot at 30,000 psi and get 2920 fps with a duplex  . Whether or not the PSI I am getting is 100% correct, it was shot with the same criteria and the duplex definitely shot the "almost" same velocity at a considerable lower pressure. Richard |
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Jan 11, 2011 18:39:27 GMT -5
Richard, how is the recoil of 55 grains of 110 compared to 63 grains of H4198. Tim
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Post by alphaburnt on Jan 11, 2011 18:43:51 GMT -5
Are Hodgdon H110 and VV N110 similar at all?
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Post by alphaburnt on Jan 11, 2011 18:57:31 GMT -5
Nevermind, the Search tool is a valuable resource!
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Post by Richard on Jan 11, 2011 19:08:34 GMT -5
H-110 and V V N-110 are two different animals. Do not use H-110!!!!!!! It is a ball powder and can clog your vent liner. Only use N-110. trbo..............The velocity difference should give you a hint ;D When I am doing these tests, I am shooting from a lead sled so recoil is a bit hard to determine Also, what is objectionable to you, might not be so with me? Bigmoose just thrives on the recoil from his 400 gr. BUSTER bullets ;D Richard |
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Jan 11, 2011 20:04:17 GMT -5
Thats what I was thinking although 8 grains less powder had me hoping I could up the speed with less recoil. Have you shot n110 at slower speeds and if so what kind of groups do you get? thanks Tim
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Post by Richard on Jan 11, 2011 20:08:22 GMT -5
Look back over the traces and you will see I shot it at 50 gr. also.
Duplexing is the way to go!
Richard
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Jan 11, 2011 20:54:46 GMT -5
Thanks Richard. Im still 6-8 weeks out on my Pacnor. Im building a Remington Pacnor .45 and am just trying to get everything lined out. Im sure I will have questions once it arrives. This is strictly a whitetail hunting rig and intend on using the 195 grain Barnes, Thanks Tim
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 11, 2011 21:46:18 GMT -5
Richard,
Thrives may be too strong, but its great fun lighting off a cannon shot.
However due to father time, after 10 or so shots, I fly the red flag, when I so a young man.......it would be too silly to finish that sentence. couse I'm not.
so far I have invited a bunch of my friends to shot it...no takers, one gent said its all rite for me since I have only a few brain cells left.
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Post by sw on Jan 11, 2011 22:38:45 GMT -5
Duplexing is the way to go! Richard If you want to shoot relatively fast. If not, then use enough of the primer powder to not get too high of a pressure and accept the lower velocity ... oops, that's a book load isn't it!  . Seriously, to get optimum velocity, max accuracy, and keep the pressure where max is reached relatively early, obturation obtained quickly, then a fast powder has to quickly raise the pressure to obturate the bullet quickly and raise the pressure for the slower powder to work efficiently and without undo temp sensitivity.( I know that the H-4198 shooters in 45s might well disagree with the accuracy part and I understand). Duplex helps because it is our artificial neck engraving pressure maker. Now that we really have some cold weather we need to come up with velocity variances of various common loads and just see how single, slower powders compare with duplex in temp stability. SW |
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 12, 2011 8:23:19 GMT -5
Trbo,
According to the recoil calculator, Richards load 55gr 110 and the Barnes 195gr bullet, produces 19.07 pounds of recoil, which is in the ball park for 06 shooters.
[in a 10lb rifle]
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Post by rangeball on Jan 12, 2011 10:18:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification Jon, that's what I meant and I should have been more specific- saboted .40s in a .45.
If obturation comes from pressure and the higher pressure of the single is still within the safe zone, wouldn't the single provide greater accuracy potential, especially with the barnes?
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Post by tar12 on Jan 12, 2011 10:30:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification Jon, that's what I meant and I should have been more specific- saboted .40s in a .45. If obturation comes from pressure and the higher pressure of the single is still within the safe zone, wouldn't the single provide greater accuracy potential, especially with the barnes? I am using N-120 as a single.It is incredibly accurate with the 195. Richard can you prove out that a duplex is more accurate than a single shooting the all copper 195? Just curious as I will not be changing a thing myself.Past experience has dictated that the all cooper bullets need a good stout kick in the backside.... |
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 12, 2011 10:47:13 GMT -5
I have yet to shot the 195 for accuracy, Barnes shipped them yesterday.
The Barnes 290gr TMZ, must rank among the the accurate bullet made, 53grs of H4198, I have no experimented with this load, it is Rick's orginal one. Its hard to believe it can be improved on.
If some of the fine marksmen on this board would try them, [sabotless] they will find, its capable of one hole groups,
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 12, 2011 11:22:25 GMT -5
IMHO tight fit is very important with sabotless
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Post by Jon on Jan 12, 2011 14:24:47 GMT -5
Range.ball. Only trying will tell every gun is differant. What works in one may not work in others.
Jon
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Post by rangeball on Jan 12, 2011 15:19:25 GMT -5
Range.ball. Only trying will tell every gun is differant. What works in one may not work in others. Jon Absolutely, and when my .45 is ready, I do plan to try it since I have it, as well as a fresh jug of H4198. |
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Post by Richard on Jan 12, 2011 22:12:38 GMT -5
Tar...........thats kind of hard to do?  ?? Do you realize just how many duplex loads I have concocted ;D? It would take a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 195 Barnes to throughly prove or dis prove that scenario. And I can't really prove that you can get better accuracy from a duplex/triplex vs. a good single powder load. There are just so many variables. I don't think I will get it posted tonight, but we went shooting today as yesterday the roads were still icy and Bill did not want to venture out to the club with his 2-wheel drive P/U. I put together some interesting loads along with traces. Richard |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 22:38:57 GMT -5
Tar, my most accurate load is 60 grns of 4198 @about 2700. less than half inch for five shots if conditions are good. one of Richards duplexes of 15/55 n110/ n120 gets it up to about 3000 but the groups open up to bout 3/4". but this I can tell you, it flat slams deer......Bill
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Post by tar12 on Jan 12, 2011 23:20:40 GMT -5
Richard,
I did not mean a total closet cleaning! And I am not trying to bust you out on anything as I was just curious as to what the dynamics were when using a duplex VS. a single powder when shooting all copper bullets. I called upon you as you do a lot of shooting in this respect. A inquiring mind wanted to know..... ;D
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Post by deadeye on Jan 12, 2011 23:51:50 GMT -5
i think while going through the burning rate powders that n120 & h4198 share a common characteristic, they both spike(pressure wise) very quickly, possibly 2 of the best all around great powder's for all of our main mz caliber's meaning .50,.45& in our applications sabot or sabotless. jmho
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Post by rangeball on Jan 13, 2011 11:37:49 GMT -5
Look back over the traces and you will see I shot it at 50 gr. also. Richard Richard, I've looked back at them and can't find where you shot 50gr of N110. What kind of fps did you get with 50gr? Nevermind, found it. Wow, 2830 fps with 50gr as a single and only 33,056 psi... impressive. |
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Post by Richard on Jan 13, 2011 12:08:57 GMT -5
Tar.........give me a load or two you want me to shoot and I'll burn up some 195 Barnes. I do have some, just a whole lot cheaper shooting those 200 XTP blems ;D
Look at the 15/55 N-110/H-322 duplex and the N-110 55 gr. load. These two are pretty close in velocity? Let me know and I'll get some loads together for next week. I am also planning on trying identical loads with different primers for comparison.
Richard
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Post by rangeball on Jan 13, 2011 12:18:49 GMT -5
Tar.........give me a load or two you want me to shoot and I'll burn up some 195 Barnes. I do have some, just a whole lot cheaper shooting those 200 XTP blems ;D Look at the 15/55 N-110/H-322 duplex and the N-110 55 gr. load. These two are pretty close in velocity? Let me know and I'll get some loads together for next week. I am also planning on trying identical loads with different primers for comparison. Richard If we're looking for an accuracy difference from the higher pressure/better obturation theory, any chance it would show up at extended range, like 2-3oo yards? |
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Post by tar12 on Jan 13, 2011 18:52:21 GMT -5
Tar.........give me a load or two you want me to shoot and I'll burn up some 195 Barnes. I do have some, just a whole lot cheaper shooting those 200 XTP blems ;D Look at the 15/55 N-110/H-322 duplex and the N-110 55 gr. load. These two are pretty close in velocity? Let me know and I'll get some loads together for next week. I am also planning on trying identical loads with different primers for comparison. Richard 60 grns of N120 and the 195 Barnes. You choose the duplex that most closely mimics the pressure and fps.Send me you address and I will send you some 195s. |
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. Whether or not the PSI I am getting is 100% correct, it was shot with the same criteria and the duplex definitely shot the "almost" same velocity at a considerable lower pressure.
. Seriously, to get optimum velocity, max accuracy, and keep the pressure where max is reached relatively early, obturation obtained quickly, then a fast powder has to quickly raise the pressure to obturate the bullet quickly and raise the pressure for the slower powder to work efficiently and without undo temp sensitivity.( I know that the H-4198 shooters in 45s might well disagree with the accuracy part and I understand). Duplex helps because it is our artificial neck engraving pressure maker. Now that we really have some cold weather we need to come up with velocity variances of various common loads and just see how single, slower powders compare with duplex in temp stability. 