Two questions from new BP sub shooter

[northny]

I am new to BP Sub game (I have been shooting smokeless ML 2 for four years now).

I have two BP guns to play with, a T/C Omega and a Rem 700 ML. Both are owned by my buddy, and he claimed they both show well initially, but now neither one will keep it in a 5" group at 50 yards. He can shoot his center fire rifles well (7mm mag, 450 marlin, 12 gauge slug guns).

I suspect issue is he was shooting three pellets of triple seven with sabot loads in July and August. No swabbing between shots.

I have cleaned both guns, Omega in good shape, Rem is ok. Took scopes off both guns, and remounted, checking all screws along the way. (may have been problem on the Omega)

Breech plugs seem ok. I measured the flash holes, the Omega is is .028, Rem .032. (Remington unit has the precision rifle 209 primer conversion.) I don't have reference size for either rifle, but they fall in the OK range for my savages).

While I had the breech plugs out I pushed a few bullet/ sabot combinations down the Omega barrel. 250 XTP with short black MMP sabot had good consistent pressure, left good marks from rifling. Same for 300 grain hornady (.458 dia) with plain black harvester sabot. I plan to try these with 100 g (by volume) triple seven.

A few questions.

1. I measured 20 charges of Triple Seven Powder. (FFFg) Each charge of 50 grain measured by volume. I then weighed each charge on my powder scale. Weight averaged 37.8 grains, but varied from 36.7 to 39.3 Is this a normal variation when measuring by volume? Should I normalize them by weight to 37.8 grains?

2. My buddy only used Remington Black Powder 209 primers. Would you recommend I stay with them, or go to regular 209 primers? ( I have a variety, but tend to mainly use Winchesters). Will the Remington BP primers help, hurt or be indifferent?

Any other suggestions that I should consider heading to the range?

[mountainam]

There is a weight /volume conversion chart on www.hpmuzzleloading.com that you can go by. T7 is very easy to ignite so I would use the weakest primer available. I set off T7 in my 700ML's with a reg small rifle primer with absolutely no delays. So, I think that you don't have a problem in that area. I believe the Remingtons run a tad bit looser than do the T/C's. But in either case tighter is better just like with smokeless. Good Luck.

[deadon]

As you know consistency is accuracy. The only advice I can give is weigh each load. IIRC 73.5 grs by weight equals 100 grs by volume of t7 ff. Some will say 5grs up or down with BP makes no difference. I want to eliminate all possible variables. JM2, Rusty

[artjr338wm]

Northny, I own a Encore 209x50 that I have shot around 2.3-2.5lbs (loose powder) of 3F-777 out of it using the fallowing load for 95% of the firings:

300 grain .452" Hornady XTP
Hornady black HP sabot
120 grains by volume 3F-777 powder
Standard Winchester W209 Primer. This is NOT a ML specific primer, or a primer designed for use with BP subs. It is simply Winchesters 209 primer for use with 12ga reloads.

Although I can not recall the exact temps shot in, I know I shot this load a large amount of times in warm weather, but I always swabbed btwn each shot with a single spit patch and always allowed the barrel to cool for fifteen minuets btwn shots if outside temp is above 70*.

I will give you the lessons I learned about shooting my Encore in warm weather and my over all opinion of shooting 3F-777 out of my Encore. These lessons are based 100% on my experience with shooting 3f-777 out of my Encore and should apply to other standard inline MLs, but please keep in mind these are my results shooting MY Encore, and they should be used as a base line for learning not as rules written in stone as the MLs your working with might behave totally different.

From this point on all information I am listing is concerning data I gathered based 100% on using the fallowing load and components
for EVERY SHOT I fired. Remember, these are observation that although I doubt would be completely unique to my Encore and should have some application to any inline shooting 3F-777, they were gathered from shooting my Encore

300 grain Hornady .452" XTP
Hornady's Black HP sabot made for them by MMP
120 grains by volume of 3F-FFF
Standard Winchester W209

But before you try anything that is difficult or complicated or requires you spend money, make absolutely certain there is nothing wrong with either ML in terms of the scopes, rings and bases, barrels or breach plugs. I know it will most likely be a PITA but consider remounting the scopes that are on them both just so you can eliminate that as potential problem. Also make sure the stocks are not the cause of the problems by making sure they are fitted properly in terms of action and barrel contact. See if you can barrow from friends, any new as possible sabots or different types of primers. This way you can save some $$$ and try different components.

#1-After you have eliminated the ML itself and the scopes and mounting systems as the potential cause of your problems I would start out with a 100% new and clean slate. By that I mean I would go out and buy 1 pack each of both Harvester and MMP sabots that are designed to work the best for MLs in question. If not to expensive I would consider buying a new breach plug for each as well. Look at it this way. If you start out with scopes you know are good and mounted correctly, you use sabots you know will handle the pressures, use brand new breach plugs, you are starting out with 100% known quantities and have eliminated all the potential problems that can be caused by using components that have been used previously and are basically a unknown in terms of their level of quality.

#1A-I quickly learned about the dreaded 3F-777 "crud ring" that was deposited in the bore immediately ahead of the breach plug area after every firing. If I did not swab after every shot the bore became so fouled after 2-3 shots, loading became almost impossible. I learned about the spit patch swabbing from PR bullets website. I also noticed a dramatic increase in my accuracy and the consistency of my accuracy once I swabbed after every shot.

#2-If I did not allow my barrel to cool down to ambient temp BTWN every shot, I would suffer poor accuracy due to sabot failure. Bottom line you simply CAN NOT SHOOT SABOTS out of a hot to the touch barrel and not suffer SABOT FAILURE. Of this fact I am 100% certain. I also know It is basically IMHO a waist of time to shoot a ML in temps above 75* unless I have a barrel cooler.
Plastic sabots simply can not take hot weather.

#3-You will have to experiment with in between shots cooling time (strongly recommend you invest in a timer if you don't have one) to determine what is best for accuracy if shooting in temps above IMHO, 70*. If your serious I STRONGLY AS POSSIBLE recommend you invest in a aluminum barrel cooler that you should be able to buy from a member here or if you are capable and have the tools necessary make one your delf from the designs you can get here for free. I bought two one for a .50 cal ML and one for a .45 cal and it is with out doubt the best money I ever spent on a ML shooting accessory. With a AL barrel cooler your wait btwn shoots time is zero (even in temps above 85*) and you incidents of heat stress induced sabot failure are subsequently also zero. Of coarse this is a non issue in temps below 50*, below 40* is even better.

#3-Make sure you are using as newly manufactured sabots as you can get. I personally have some MMP sabots made that are well over 10yrs old and no where near as strongly made as my Harvester sabots that are only months old. I have since separated all my older sabots so as to insure they will not end up getting used accidentally.

#4-You were on the right track by test loading sabot and bullet combos. You should do this for both MLs to find as tight fitting as is practical, bullet and sabot combo for each separate ML as can be loaded while out in the field with out the aid of a range rod.

#5-Make sure you always start out each range session with a 100% clean and dry oil free, barrel and breach plug.

#6-I achieved quite good accuracy using the above listed load and never tried any ML specific 209 primers. I suggest you experiment using standard types of 209 primers. I know this could be a bit waist full as you can only buy them in bricks of 100 each, but I personally feel primer selection does have a impact on accuracy using BP subs, but I admit I have never used and do not know if the 209s that are claimed by their manufacturers to be specifically designed for use with BP subs like 777 actually work and dramatically reduce the 777 crud ring, or are just hype and a waist of $$$.

#7-I also learned with BP subs like 777 and even Pyrodex that when you start to exceed charges of powder of 100 grains by volume it became increasingly difficult to get consistent accuracy. I strongly suspect this was due to the fact I was using Hornady High Pressure sabots back in 2001 and since then sabot materials have increased in their ability to with stand pressure.
Todays tougher sabots can definitely handle considerably higher pressures, but I still recommend you start out by using 90 grains by volume and gradually increase the charge weight until you develop a load that shoots well almost always, but remember not to exceed the max load charge weight as per manufacturers specifications. IOW, don't blow yourself up. Example of this is my friends Encore shot best using 110 grains of loose 3-F 777 above 110 grains he got poor accuracy. Mine shot the same using 110, 115, and 120 grains of 3-F 777. I found out shooting both Pyrodex Select and 777 out of my Encore 100 grains of either one always gave me good accuracy. It was when i went over 100 grains my troubles began.

#8-Lastly what ever you do you will best best served by exersising a large does of patience and when practicle change only one thing at a time. Based on my experience these things take time and on occasion lots of time to figure out. Jumping around when trying things usually ends up hurting not helping. Also if you do not now keep a dated record of all you do in as compleatly deatailed as you can. Also make sure as others have said, that your charges of powder as as close to the same as is possible. Consistantcy is the God of all ML accuracy

Wish you luck,
Arthur.

[northny]

Arthur..I can't thank you enough for the thought and time that you put into the answer to my questions. I did have to laugh at myself that I did not log in and read it before I went to the range today! ;D It took me all of one shot before I had to pull the breech plug to find out why my dry patch swab would not come back up the bore. Shining a bore light in, I got a first hand education in the "crud ring". I had heard of a spit patch, tried it and it worked great.

It was a nippy 22 degrees at the range today, with a light snow falling, so I left my cooling rod home.

The one comment I will make on the Remington ML 209 primers is I am curious to see if the primer pocket stays clean. My buddy has 75 to 100 rounds though this rifle, all with the Remington ML 209 primer, and the primer pocket is clean as a whistle and he claimed he never cleaned it. I put 11 more through it today and did not see any build up.

One of the reasons I have my buddys rifles to sort out is that I have an assortment of bullets and sabots(all fresh last fall) and primers from sorting out three different Savage ML IIs (mine and my two sons). I don' t have any bulk Hornady 300 grain XTPs, so will pick some up to try.

I do plan on putting one of my known good scopes on it (the one on it is only 4x) but wanted to see what it would do.

My results today were 3 shots at 25 yards .75in center to center including the fouler.

3 more shots at 50 yards .75 inch ctc.

first two shots at 100 yards ok (adjusted sights down six inches as I was at top edge of paper) then last two shots missed the paper but I think I know what changed.

Thanks again for your response, I think I will go read it several more times.

[10ga]

Of BP and subs I can say I have plenty of experience. I prefer real BP to any of the subs, however have not tried the new Blackhorn209 so don't really know about that. Swiss is my prefered powder for accuracy work and hunting. The cheaper powders are good for everything else like plinking, BP revolvers and shotguns, muskets, training kids and others. With subs, as I know BP can be hard for some people to get, I like the pyrodex best. In my inline .50 rifles, 2 Firehawks + White Bison, I shoot P for hunting and RS otherwise. In my hammerguns, 3 .50s and a .58, I shoot Select. Only one of the hammerguns is fast twist the others are patched roundball guns. I have always had good luck with full bore bullets at BP velocities. I have at times shot "belted" bullets from 223 gr to 444 gr. Have also shot REAL and minie bullets.
The important thing to remember with BP and subs is that you don't come close to MLII velocities so remember your trajectories.
As for getting accuracy that like the MLII and smokeless depends on being consistent. At the range I will swab with wet patch then 2 dry between every shot. Remember to use your bronze brush and plastic cleaner fairly often too as keeping the plastic out is important. I don't know why but BP and sub guns collect lots of plastic in the barrel, because of the fouling I guess.
I have found each gun has a favorite bullet/load combo depending on the type and granulation of powder used.
artjr gave you a good regimen and good info. I just don't like to use sabots in my smokey guns.
The other thing is that BP and sub guns need smooth bores. Check the bores and if necessary lap them. Lapping is a different subject but if you need info just post a Q or search do a google etc... check out Beartoothe Bullets, they have good info on lapping. The smoother your bore the less fouling the barrel will collect and hold, that is why old roundball rifles had shallow rifleing. Keep us posted with progress. Best O luck with the new guns, 10 ga