Cliff notes for a .45 barrel?

[esshup]

O.K. I'm kinda confused (not an unusual state lately)

I'm seriously thinking of swapping the .50 barrel for a .45 on the ML-II. I'm assuming that it will be just as easy to swap it back if I want to go hog hunting because the .50 really likes the Barnes 350g FB bullets and the hogs don't. ;D Right?

I have to go with a .45, this state won't allow anything less than a .44 cal barrel for deer.

So, with that out of the way, I'm assuming that I can either go sabotless or with a sabot with the same barrel, correct?

In a cliff notes sort of way, what sort of performance am I looking at? I'm specifically targeting whitetails, and would prefer not to have to think too much about bullet drop (Minute of deer will suffice) from 50 to 250 Yds.

I'm really looking for the following data without having to spend hours searching the forums:

Sabotless.............................Sabot
Bullet and wt. .....................Bullet and wt.
BC (proved)..........................BC (proved)
MV........................................MV

What barrel length and twist is recommended? I prefer a gun that weighs roughly the same as my stock ML-II that has an extra pound and a half of weight in the blind magazine hole.

I have picked up a new hunting property, and have the opportunity to easily shoot 250 Yds. I might not have time to range find the deer, so I'm looking for a flatter trajectory than my ML-II w/43g IMR4759/250g SST gives me. That's where it's the most accurate even tho I could push it faster.

For you Indiana guys, I'm trying to decide between a new barrel for the ML-II or re-barreling my 25 WSSM Model 70 into a .358 WSSM.

Thanks

[Richard]

esshup............For starters, the below link is from our "Load Information" These are loads I compiled over better than 6 months and Edge, Kerry and DBinNY sorted and put on our board.
If .44 is the minimum caliber you can use, then you will have to forget about the .40 cal. saboted bullets. You will be relegated to using the .45 bullets sabotless. These of course, have to be sized to fit your barrel. There will be some "trial and error" in getting the right fit and some dies to be purchased. Do look in the hints and tips for more information. I will be putting some information on tonight with sabotless 200 gr. Hornady FTX bullets and loads. The loads are not max and have another 100 fps or so to go reliably/safely.
Yes, you can easily swap barrels once you get the hang of it.
Richard

[esshup]

Richard:

Thanks. I'll do more in-depth reading tonight. The following was clipped from the Indiana hunting regs:
Muzzleloading firearms must be .44
caliber or larger, loaded with a single bullet
of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are
allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber
or larger.

[esshup]

Richard:

Thanks. Even tho the link isn't there, I found it. With the 195 to 200g bullets running between 2700 and 2900, on an average, what is more accurate, saboted or sabotless? Which barrel are you using for your testing (mfg and length)? Something in that weight and speed would fit what I am looking for to a "T".

I assume sabotless is a little more heat tolerant than the sabots? I can shoot out to 350 here behind the house, so testing will be easy.

Even tho I show up as a newbie here, I've been on Dougs since the green board, and on Sav10ML. The write-up on the ML-I trigger over there is me.

Savage bringing smokeless muzzleloading to mass market got me into muzzleloading and the good people on Dougs got me pointed in the right direction. Thanks guys!

[zakjak221]

esshup,

If you decide to stay with sabots,PacNor has a .510 bore that will accept either 250 or 300 gr's up to .458 or a .505 bore that will shoot up to .452's.
I bought one recently and really like it.
Seems to like all the bullets I've tried (Rem's,BO's,XTP's)so far.
Jeff from Iowa put this spec'd barrel to good use last year using it on a variety of game. So far, I've only got a doe with mine this year at 125 yds.
Specs are .510bore/25" barrel/6grove/1-18 twist/bead blasted.
Very quality barrel,hand lapped,good folks to work with.
My two cents.
Mark

[Richard]

esshup........My barrel is a 26" Pac-Nor. I also have a 23" PN that I have pushed velocities up to 3100 fps with the 195 Barnes and 200 SST's. The 26" can go a bit higher, but I have found these very high velocities tend to play havoc with vent liners and firing pin supports (primer hanger on the end of bolt?)
The loads I just posted were all shot with the center crosshair. I did not post the actual pictures of the 200 yard groups but they had been hitting around 3" + at 100 yards. I have shot 200 gr. SST's in the 3,000 fps range and when sighted 3" + at 100 yards, they are only 4" low at 300.........so, pretty flat if you want it.
I see all the Indiana boys are shooting .40 saboted bullets and from your reply, you are OK there.
Richard

[Dave W]

Deadeye posted these real world numbers for sabotless with the Parker 275 BE.
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=3106

[esshup]

Richard, can the same barrel shoot .45 sabotless and .40 saboted bullets?

In your testing, what has given you better accuracy, plastic or straight metal? Which one is less fickle?

[fishhawk]

Esshup, The easiest way to go .45 with your Savage in my opinion would be buy a 24-26" Pacnor "DD" barrel in 1in22 twist. It will be slightly heavier than your .50 because of the smaller bore. One like this in stainless shipped should be $450 or a little less. The "DD" is for our Dave D that made the arrangement with Pacnor to make these to direct fit the Savage 10ml. You can get blued, fluting etc. for different prices. The most recommended load is the .40cal 195gr. Barnes Expander MZ "Flat Base" (bc. 176). These must be ordered directly from Barnes. The "Flat base" are recommended over their standard to reduce the possibility of blowing sabots with faster loads. The flat base come without sabots, so buy Harvester non-crushrib for the .45/.40 combo (lt. blue). The most common single powder load is 58-62gr. of H4198. The velocities will get up around 2700fps. depending on your barrel length. Richard and others have shot duplex loads way over 3000fps. Sabotless is a little more fickle, most have never needed to try after seeing results from the above combinations. As far as switching back to the .50 for hogs, I can't imagine a hog that could withstand this .45 load. It also will recoil less than that big .50 Barnes you use. I know the bc of .176 isn't great, but when it leaves the barrel that fast it doesn't make much difference to 300yds or so. Several members have dropped deer well beyond 300yds. I hope this fills out your "cliff notes"!

[spaniel]

I shoot a 1-22", 26" .45cal PN. 200SW/SST 15/55gr AA5744/H322 for 2770 fps. Zeroed at 100 yds without looking it up I think my 200yd drop is like 4 inches. 15 inches low at 300 yds. Sick sick sick. My gun is pretty darn heavy, I am not sure it is heavier than what you are shooting now though. A lighter stock than my HS Precision or a 22-23" barrel would lighten it up some. As for BC, using .265 matches what I observe on the range for the 200SW out of a smokeless gun; oddly out of a BP gun at only 2100 fps it is much lower.

[dave d.]

Nov 29, 2010 22:38:05 GMT -5 @fishhaowk said:

Esshup, The easiest way to go .45 with your Savage in my opinion would be buy a 24-26" Pacnor "DD" barrel in 1in22 twist. It will be slightly heavier than your .50 because of the smaller bore. One like this in stainless shipped should be $450 or a little less. The "DD" is for our Dave D that made the arrangement with Pacnor to make these to direct fit the Savage 10ml. You can get blued, fluting etc. for different prices. The most recommended load is the .40cal 195gr. Barnes Expander MZ "Flat Base" (bc. 176). These must be ordered directly from Barnes. The "Flat base" are recommended over their standard to reduce the possibility of blowing sabots with faster loads. The flat base come without sabots, so buy Harvester non-crushrib for the .45/.40 combo (lt. blue). The most common single powder load is 58-62gr. of H4198. The velocities will get up around 2700fps. depending on your barrel length. Richard and others have shot duplex loads way over 3000fps. Sabotless is a little more fickle, most have never needed to try after seeing results from the above combinations. As far as switching back to the .50 for hogs, I can't imagine a hog that could withstand this .45 load. It also will recoil less than that big .50 Barnes you use. I know the bc of .176 isn't great, but when it leaves the barrel that fast it doesn't make much difference to 300yds or so. Several members have dropped deer well beyond 300yds. I hope this fills out your "cliff notes"!

Esshup fishawk just gave you the best advice imo.63grs of h4198 and a Barnes 195 will get you around 2750fps and will get you out as far as you need. I like things simple and the above is the easiest way. Goodluck building your gun.

[esshup]

Dave:

Does the barrel use the standard ML-II breechplug and ventliner or something different?

[fishhawk]

I'll answer in case Dave doesn't see your question. Yes the "DD" barrel uses your Savage 10ml breechplug and ventliners. All you need is the barrel and a Savage barrel wrench. Plenty of us can either loan you the wrench, or if your close someone can help you. Its not hard to change and headspace. There is a good post on doing it in the "build your rifle" section.

[dave d.]

:)thanks fish...

[Richard]

Well there you have it esshup! I can save some typing ;D

Let me just add this............The 195 Barnes and 200 SST's are good but a little on the expensive side for doing a lot of practice. Get yourself some 200 gr. Hornady XTP's and even the Blem's from Mid-South. These bullets shoot every bit as accurate as the other two mentioned. The BC is not as high but I would go head to head at 100 yards in a shooting match with the XTP's vs. the other two. (by the way, the 200 gr. Blems run $12.95/100 and are definitely Hornady bullets. They shoot just as accurate as factory 1st. line bullets at $21.00/100)
The single powder loads are great for keeping it simple. If you like to play, the duplex loads give you a little more reliability plus speed. To each his own
Richard

[michael]

Wow I just learned a lot reading these posts thanks its gonna really help in my m 700 conversion with the pn barrel I'm just not sure if I should go with the 24 inch barrel like Dave D did or go with a 26 inch any suggestions

[tar12]

I am one of the Indiana boys who recently made the switch to the .45 Pac-Nor.The swap is a easy one.Many started out wanting to go sabotless but that route is fraught with frustration in getting the fit "right". Very few remain shooting sabotless. I received a barrel drop when I got my barrel back from having it cut and recrowned by Pac-Nor at a very modest price of $25. I had every intention of having a full length die made to shoot sabotless but the accuracy has been so outstanding I doubt that I will for now.There are 2 proven loads that will flat getter done @300 yds and beyond. One would be the 56-63 grn of H-4198 and the other would be the 60 grn of Vit-N120. No reliabilty issues with either one in the .45. I am currenty torture testing the N-120 in the .45 but have already been there with the .50 and expect nothing but stellar performance in all conditions.From a Indiana guy save your money and go with the .45

[michael]

I don't have any interest in shooting sabotless I only want the best shooting possible I would love to be able to shoot 300 yards with no guess work

[esshup]

Thanks! From my recent hunt it sure would have been nice to just point and shoot, since I ended up shooting over a wounded buck's back with the .50 ML-II. (I didn't do the wounding - he showed up on the property.) Haven't seen him since. I thought he was a bit over 200 Yds out and he actually was 140. Clean miss over his back.

A buddy has a wrench, and I have the vise and blocks so I'm all set to go once I pull the trigger on a barrel. 24", 25" or 26"? Faster is better if the accuracy is there. Most of the hunting is done from a blind.

Choices, choices. I have a ML-I that has a thumbhole laminate stock and is too heavy for a walk-around gun. Plus a Stainless Accutrigger ML-II that I bought a while back from Rifleman. Which one to use for the conversion...............

tar12, Q sure has grown since I last saw him at the wrestling match in Valpo.

Richard, thanks for the tips on the bullets. I have no problem playing with duplex, I played around a bit with duplexing with the help of RB a number of years ago. When I was using 300g Barnes "X" bullets for hogs, the duplex load worked the best. I upped the ante to 350g Barnes "X" bullets and bunch of Accurate 2015. You will be spending a lot of time at the range with Pressure trace. You might be suprised by some loads.

I let a friend in WVA borrow my ML-II for their special ML hunt and he was really impressed. He'll be in for a shock if he wants to borrow it again and it shoots even better. ;D

[tar12]

You changed your board name!Valpo was several years ago..my how the time flies! Yeah bud, he sure has grown in many ways..

[esshup]

Nov 30, 2010 21:36:15 GMT -5 tar12 said:

You changed your board name!Valpo was several years ago..my how the time flies! Yeah bud, he sure has grown in many ways..

Yep. The new board wouldn't let me use my old one (Blue-Dot-37.5)

[dave d.]

:)Scott its been along time. I still have that original ml 1 you turned me on to. Never fired it and it will stay that way. Welcome back.

[sw]

Esshup,
I've never noticed a line of posts that were as "right on" as this one. Concerning hog hunting, the 195B should be adequate for any hog you encounter. Sabotless shooting has some advantages; but to me in the 45, hasn't out weighed the saboted shooting. The 195B and 200SST are 2 great but different bullets. Consider using the " headspacing" post when putting the barrel on the receiver.

[esshup]

Dave:

I have mine in the box as well. Yeah, it's been a while! New (at least to me) house, renovating another one for my parents to move into, etc., etc.

I lost count of the # of deer my first Savage ML-I has taken in the meantime.

Maybe I should go back to the shop and see if they have any more to sell? I know for sure that they don't have any more ML-I's. ;D

sw, I have no doubt that the 195's would take a hog, it's just a lot more satisfying to tip them over in their tracks with the 350's. ;D With the ease of swapping barrels on the Savage, it wouldn't be a problem to change it for a hog hunt.

I think I won the shortest tracking contest at the 1st or 2nd Loshbow Boar Blast with the 350's.

[esshup]

One last question. I see that they offer different land/groove options. 8,6, etc. For shooting saboted bullets, what is the preferred count and why? Pac-Nor said the most commonly sold twist rate for that barrel is 1:22. I'm specifically asking about the L/G count.

[dave d.]

:)Scott 4 petals 2 lands on each.

[Chris Champion]

Kind of late in the game here but I noticed you said you live in IN. I couldn't agree more with what tar12 said. For Indiana it doesn't get much better than the 45 pacnor.

[esshup]

Thanks Dave (and Chris). Makes sense.

[michael]

Hey Dave D I talked to Pete today and ordered 2 breach plugs thanks for the tip I must say that guy is pretty funny I'm hoping he gets them sen out right away I'm really excited about this build

[howa]

I wish one of you guys would post a link to the exact bullets you are referring to when you're talking about the 195 bo's and the 200 sst's. Whenever I go to someplace like midsouthshooters.com or midway or anyplace lese, I am never sure exactly which bullets it is that I'm looking for. There are so many similiar ones, give me a link or a part # or something. And same thing with the sabots, crush- rib or non crush rib, light blue? black? purple? Us new guys don't understand all the lingo that some of the more experienced guys on here kind of take for granted. I don't want to order the wrong stuff. Thanks.