4759 vs 4198 Deer Hunting Loads??

[Dave1]

Since purchasing my stainless/laminated Savage 10MLII several years ago I worked up to and found the listed max load of 43 grains of IMR 4759 powder, MMP short black sabot, and 250 grain Shockwave to be accurate and consistent at 100-150 (deer hunting) yards in my gun. This load is said to produce 2330 fps.

The listed max load of 4198 is 73 grains and produces 2534 fps which is about 200 fps faster than the max listed load of 4759 that I currently use.

I see that many here use 4198 so I would like to ask; do shooters find the performance and consistency of 4198 to be noticeably better than 4759? Is there an increase in felt recoil with the heftier loads of 4198? Any ignition or other issues or concerns with 4198? Any info, experiences, and opinions appreciated.

Thanks, Dave

[edge]

If your shots are under 200 yards then going much faster than you are shooting may not give you much more advantage and a 250 grain pistol bullet may fare better at lower velocities anyway.

Up the velocity and up the powder weight will absolutely increase recoil.

4759 will rarely misfire!

If you like to play with loads, then play to your hearts content. IMO, most powders can be tuned to shoot accurately but it may take a fair amount of shooting to find the sweet spot.

edge.

[whyohe]

dave. I have not shot 4759 but i have shot H-4198 and VV N-110. and yes there is a significant increase in recoil IMO. I had an accurate load with H-4198 But at 66 grns so probaby not as bad as 73 grains. there can be ignition problems at cold temps with reg 209 primers(some have reported) but not any that i can remember with mag or 209As.

i have to agree with edge on what he said.

[mike3132]

IMR 4759 is a very accurate powder and reliable in the .50. Your 43 grain load is around 2250 or so FPS. The deer will never know the difference in the speed gained using H4198. Why would you want to change if your combo shoots accurate and is reliable? Mike

[zakjak221]

Dave,

You will definitely notice the recoil difference.
I shot 45 gr's of 5744--even slower fps than your 4759.
Anyway, while working up H4198 loads of 67-70 gr's this year, the recoil was definitely noticeable.
I think for 150 yds and less, the performance is not that noticeable as well.

Mark

[wilmsmeyer]

I agree with all responses. The advantage comes with even a heavier dose of H4198 if you are trying to flatten your trajectory curve. With that in mind...and close shots still being a possibility...you need to look at your bullet and its' ability to stay intact at the high speeds.....IMO

With H4198 I have reached 2800 fps with accuracy and that's a leap over 2300 fps....after 150-200 yds

Also, 2500 fps is easy with 300 gr bullets. That is also a big leap over 2100 fps once you get out to 200 yds.

Recoil is the issue for some and I understand.

Foe "normal" hunting encounters even a book load is more then enough.

[bloodtrailer]

I have never tried H4198 with 250grn bullets,BUT it works great w/parker 275 and 300grn rem.4759 the h4198 3 inch high 100 Little low at 200 both gave great groups (my gun shoots slightly tighter groups H4198)

[boarhog]

The only misfires I've had happened when I tried to use H-4198, or 10-X, with 250 grain bullets in a 50 caliber. Perhaps I would have had better success if my loads had been a bit hotter? I think I started at 62 gr. The bloopers scared me out of using straight 4198, even with a 300 gr Barnes Original. I had great success with a duplex of 10/55-58 N-110/H-4198. I also had about the same accuracy when using 4759 or A-5744 as the booster powder, and RE-7 as the main charge. Again, all with 300 gr bullets.
Boarhog

[bloodtrailer]

I started at 68grns H4198 and settled at 66 for my gun and 67 for my sons gun w 300grn bullets and TIGHT HBCR sabots

[wilmsmeyer]

Boarhog,

Don't be scared from H4198. You shot WAY to low of a charge for a 250 bullets...who knows how tight the sabot/bullet was....and you probably didn't seat the bullet REAL HARD on the charge. JMO

Anyone who has had a misfire with H4198 at zero degrees or warmer has caused the problem themselves IMO. Many causes here: Not enough powder and too light of a bullet (not good for ignition pressure). Loose fitting projectile (same) Powder contamination of some sort. Not seating the load VERY HARD. I firmly rap the ramrod with a hammer (or a club sized stick in the woods) every time.

I rarely use less the 76 gr for 250's or less then 70 gr for 300's. I don't patch at all between shots, use a Teflon taped breech plug and a VERY carefully applied small dab of anti-seize on my liner threads. I meticulously check for any I might have got in the flash hole and I take great care to wipe the small excess off the face of the plug. I will then foul the gun immediately with a full house charge to dissipate any residues. Then do nothing but load and shoot until I clean the plug the next time.

Having shot about 10 lbs of this in the past 6 years with NO misfires ever....I can say this: When used properly, which means stout loads, H4198 will not misfire. If you do not want a very powerful load, use a different powder. If you like easy loading bullets, use a different powder. If you do not like to seat a bullet with a little extra umph, use a different powder. If you are recoil sensitive or have a gun with a hard butt plate, use a different powder. If you use ANY lubes at all on your patches or plugs for whatever your reasons, you're on your own. The variables encountered with lubes, IMO, are so diverse that it is very possible this is the cause for SOME misfires. Many shooters use different kinds and amounts of greases or oils and apply them to different areas. Other variables are plug condition and primers.

[ET]

Dave1

I have been a fan of 4759 almost from the beginning because of its performance with 250gr bullets.
When I first started using the recommended load for 4759 it came in ½-lb cans and 43gr did produce around 2330fps. After playing with this load I found my best accuracy with 42.5gr that just produced a velocity hovering at 2300fps.
Now with the new 1-lb plastic containers I found I needed 45grs. to reach that same velocity. This was not originally noted by me but by other users of 4759 and they were right.

My current load is set 1-3/4” high at 100yds shoots 4-1/2” low at 200yds. My self-imposed max range is 200yds for hunting. The cross-hairs never leave a deer’s body out to 200yds. At onetime I also considered increasing the velocity but eventually decided not too as the increased velocity would just add to my current bullets undesired fragmentation because my shots are basically under 100yds.

Also as mentioned concerning miss-fires I have never had one with 4759 even under adverse conditions.
Don’t get me wrong concerning higher velocities for a given load, as I have nothing against someone desiring a faster load. For me I see no gain in it for my application at the moment with an already proven deer slayer load that keeps producing accurate 1-shot, 1-kill results for me.


Ed

[Dave1]

Great information, thanks.

My bullet trajectory doesn't seem to match the velocity (2330 fps) that is listed in the tables for the 4759 max load of 43 grains. It appears there is a significant velocity difference between the "old" 4759 powder and the newer plastic jug 4759 powder.

The actual trajectory I am getting when shooting the 250 grain SW with the 43 grains of plastic jug IMR SR 4759 is: 3 inches high at 100 yards and about 5 inches low at 200 yds. Perhaps I will need to work my load upward.

I don't have a chrono but did play with the muzzle velocity figures and input data on one of the popular online balistics tables ( www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi ) until I found a trajectory similar to mine. I entered the data of: 250 grain, .452 bullet, 1800 fps muzz velocity, 50 yard range increments, 150 yard zero, then hit the "calculate button. The trajectory shown on the chart for that data is very close to what I am experiencing. Could it be that 43 weighed grains of the new 4759 powder is only producing 1800 fps? Could there be that much velocity difference (500 fps) between the old and new 4759 powder??

Is there any posted load and ballistic data for the new plastic jug IMR SR 4759 powder?

Dave

[Dave W]

42gr 4759 timed at 2100fps with a 250 XTP in my gun.

My first year with the MLII I used 43gr N110, timed at 2300fps with a 250 SST. 2" high at 100yds put me just over 3" low at 200yds. IIRC

[Dave1]

Based on my actual bullet trajectory (3" high at 100 and 5 inches low at 200) it does not seem I am getting the similar velocity with a 43 grain load of 4759 that others are getting with the 250 grain bullet.

I am beginning to wonder about the accuracy of my powder scale. It is an old Lyman Ohaus balance beam type scale, probably 30 years old. Will try to find someone with newer scale and do some comparisons.

Dave