Effect of powder weight

[bigcountry]

What is the effect of powder charge weight for smokeless powder on cleanliness, vent liner life, and recoil? I'm seeing a lot of 70 plus grain charges for powders(4198,etc), but the factory loads are all in the 40-50 grain range. If speeds over 2300fps are not the goal what is the advantage of burning more powder to get the same results? It seems to me that cleanliness, and ventliner life would suffer, along with a fellows shoulder.

[spaniel]

Nov 7, 2010 11:32:38 GMT -5 bigcountry said:

What is the effect of powder charge weight for smokeless powder on cleanliness, vent liner life, and recoil? I'm seeing a lot of 70 plus grain charges for powders(4198,etc), but the factory loads are all in the 40-50 grain range. If speeds over 2300fps are not the goal what is the advantage of burning more powder to get the same results? It seems to me that cleanliness, and ventliner life would suffer, along with a fellows shoulder.

Which of those 70gr loads you saw did NOT produce more than 2300fps? I think that answers your question as to the reason. I'm not sure I've seen anyone try to burn more powder "for the same results".

[ET]

Bigcountry

The purpose for using more powder weight with a slower burning powder is to increase the current velocity without drastically increasing the bore pressure.

Example is accelerating a 250gr bullet from 2300fps to say 2500fps or 300gr bullet from 2100fps to say 2300fps.

Yes there will be some additional recoil but one felt more like a hard shove as compared to a hard quick stab.
As to the vent liner life I’m not sure what that will do because I have not done any lengthy testing here.

So the gain for doing this is to increase the velocity without developing a much higher bore pressure.


Ed

[whyohe]

the weigh has nothing to do with cleanliness. the type of powder can effect that. you gave the example of H4198. it need to be that high og weight to get the pressure to ignite and burn consistantly. you get too low and you will have ignition issues. it may be alittle dirtier from my experiance but thats not because of the weight or amount of the powder it is just how it burns. my only comparison is to VV N-110. as to vent wear, i have not shot enough of VV to make a comparison but i do not have fast wear at all with 4198 using 65 grns wich is low to most and probably at the very bottom. I may be wrong but i would think that the faster burning powders would wear vent faster due to the higher pressures and faster peaks in pressure.

[bigcountry]

Okay, so I should have put 65 grains in instead of 70, my bad. So there is very little difference in ventliner life between powders? So because the pressure on the 4198 builds slower the recoil will be "slower"?

I'm not a big fan of recoil. The scope marks between my eyes prove to me every time that I look in the mirror that I'm not smart enough with a deer in front of me to keep from creeping up on the scope. 2500 fps out of a 250 grain bullet to kill a whitetail is not my idea of a good time.

I missed a 160" two years ago at two hundred yards. I'm hoping the smokeless will help me shoot more and clean less, which was always such a hassle with the encore. I just bought a camo synthetic stainless accutrigger 10mlii used. I'm waiting on the breech plug wrench and ventliners from savage before I shoot it.

[whyohe]

if you are not a big fan of recoil i would recomend factory suggested powders. I use 65 grns others use more. as to the slower burn = slower recoil? no. and slower may be the wrong term. IMO it actaully kicks more. than the 42 grns of VVn-110 im shooting.

here is some good reading from the tips and hints under powders and trace loads

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=2363

[moto357]

the extra weight of the powder also adds to the extra recoil of the load, not to mention the added velocity

[dougedwards]

Make no doubt about it. The more weight that you shoot which includes powder, bullet and sabot, the more recoil will be felt. In the 50 cal which I suspect you are shooting, I found no apparent difference in shooting 44 grains of the faster burning N110 than 75 grains of 10X had on vent liner wear. But found a great difference in velocity and recoil.

Doug

[rbinar]

Nov 7, 2010 11:32:38 GMT -5 bigcountry said:

What is the effect of powder charge weight for smokeless powder on cleanliness, vent liner life, and recoil? I'm seeing a lot of 70 plus grain charges for powders(4198,etc), but the factory loads are all in the 40-50 grain range. If speeds over 2300fps are not the goal what is the advantage of burning more powder to get the same results? It seems to me that cleanliness, and ventliner life would suffer, along with a fellows shoulder.

Since you ask a question that makes sense I'll try the same for an answer.

The fact is no factory load, with the possible exception of N120 gets close to 50 grains. So it should be said loads are 44 grains or less. If 2200 to 2350fps is your cup of tea then you'd need look no where else.

If you do use a load that calls for more powder you cannot make some of the assumptions mentioned. Yes if the load is correct it should shoot faster and you will have greater recoil. However more powder does not wear vents any faster than less powder if the load is correct. In fact they may well make vents last longer than standard loads.

A vent is not wore merely buy a quantity of gas but the rate of flow from the gas. Higher flow rates (though shorter periods) are caused by greater pressure. In the days of Lil Gun powder vents might last only 20 shots but the loads of Lil Gun were small as compared the the 65 to 70 grain loads you mentioned, but they made a lot more pressure. That pressure is what eroded vents.

Factory loads actually make more pressure than a common slower powder load. That's because if you make the same pressure with 70 grains of powder as with 42 a lot more gas is going to be generated even if at a slower rate. The extra gas accelerates the bullet for a longer time. though at no greater pressure. That added time means more bullet speed. Since the fuel load has been increased by 30 to 40% the bullet energy (but not speed) has the potential to increase that same amount.

I the real world to actually shoot the same pressure as a factory load H4198 or RL #7 (for two examples) would be shooting 250 grain bullets to shoulder rendering speed. The nature of powder means that a lot more powder even at the same pressure is going to make a lot more energy, with the exception being a barrel that is so short the bullet can't be under acceleration for very long in bullet time. 10ML barrels are plenty long and the bore is massive as well. That means great speed is possible even at moderate or slight pressure.

Conclusions:

1 Factory loads generally limited to 44 grains or less do fine to speeds of about 2200fps (300 grain bullet) to 2350fps (250 grain bullet) but make considerable pressure.

2 Slower powders can have considerably faster bullet speeds even when shot at lower pressures than a factory load. When shot to factory pressures considerably recoil (and bullet speed) is generated.

3 Vents are worn mostly by pressure not by gas volume so slower powders are generally easy on vents.

[whyohe]

RB you are the man when it comes to explaining that stuff. thanks! I was actually hoping you, edge or rossman would chime in.

[vamuzzle]

Good stuff. Does anyone know why Savage does not recommend the slower powders? I am shooting and happy with R7. But it uses about 50% more powder than some of the recommended loads. I suppose since one ofthe selling points for MLII was cost effectiveness, the lower powder usage might have been a factor. But I am curious whether there is a saftey issue that I am not aware of with the slower powders.

[dougedwards]

Nov 8, 2010 8:37:48 GMT -5 vamuzzle said:

Good stuff. Does anyone know why Savage does not recommend the slower powders? I am shooting and happy with R7. But it uses about 50% more powder than some of the recommended loads. I suppose since one ofthe selling points for MLII was cost effectiveness, the lower powder usage might have been a factor. But I am curious whether there is a saftey issue that I am not aware of with the slower powders.

At one time Reloder 7 was a Savage recommended powder for the 10ML. To my knowledge it has never been non-recommended. My speculation as to why Savage now only recommends three powders is to keep things simple and the faster burning powders produce less recoil and seem to be less temperature sensitive although I question that. R-7 has proven itself dependable in the temps that I hunt in Virginia. I have had two misfires in cold weather using IMR4198 with 250 grain projectiles. Won't be trying that again.

H4198, R-7, 10x,2015 are all very safe powders to use in the 10ML2 if used in the proper amounts but that applies to any powder.

Doug

[GMB54-120]

Thank you RB

That is how i understood it also. I also settled on 5744 for normal speeds and Reloader 7 for a non book powder based on desired fps and pressure traces.

2300-2400fps is plenty for my tastes using 250gr-300gr bullets....Maybe a bit more than i need actually.

[vamuzzle]

Thanks!

[rbinar]

Nov 8, 2010 8:37:48 GMT -5 vamuzzle said:

Good stuff. Does anyone know why Savage does not recommend the slower powders? I am shooting and happy with R7. But it uses about 50% more powder than some of the recommended loads. I suppose since one of the selling points for MLII was cost effectiveness, the lower powder usage might have been a factor. But I am curious whether there is a saftey issue that I am not aware of with the slower powders.

I don't know for certain why anyone does anything: that adage (from my mother) will not prevent me from saying why I THINK they don't have but very few loads.

My thinking is a load of 50 grains or less was what they decided on after some trial and error. The Savage folks always wanted to be on the conservative side. One can see the advantages from many aspects. Politically, and socially the 10ML had to face resistance not seen by any other rifle in modern history. Shooters had developed what they thought a muzzle loader would be like over decades of shooting, when a direct disagreement to that idea arrived it posed an acceptance issue.

Besides the public issues some technical things are in play also. The basic rifle is a 50 caliber smokeless bore. That would be a very uncommon caliber for smokeless powder. The see that logic just ask yourself how many times you've see a deer hunter with a 505 Gibbs or similar chambered rifle? Any smokeless rifle shooting a case is designed for a much heavier bullet (commonly from 450 to 800 grains) than would ever be attempted from a deer rifle style muzzle loader.

Since the bore is so odd and the common bullet weights are so different compared the common usage the fuel for such a rifle would be different as well. That said there are few if any powders that would work for what most consider a moderate load level of 48 to 62 grains unless the pressure was out side what any sabot would handle.

H-4198 and RL #7 are the closest to a good powder for moderate load levels but they are not good in that range. They are too slow a burning speed. So at 60 grains with a 263 grain bullet (the sabot is part of the bullet) neither is a very good powder.

For a point I refer you to the Hodgdon reloading data for the 50 Alaskan. Though the 50 lever gun shoots a good pressure range for our use it does not do so with very light weight bullets. The lightest recommended bullet is 435 grains. With that weigh bullet 62 grains of H-4198 reaches only 35,000cup. What pressure would you think it would reach with a 313 or 263 grain bullet? It would not be good.

The above was said just to show that not many loads are available to the 10ML in 50 caliber that don't either make limited pressure or must be limited to a small amount of faster powder.

You can read a more detailed explanation on my web page: www.shootingandrocketfuels.com/index_files/page0003.htm

[vamuzzle]

Thank you rbinar!

[vamuzzle]

rbinar,

Had a chance to look over you website and enjoyed it. I must confess much of it is over my head. It sounds like this may be covered there, but I couldn't really find it directly. What would happen if one shot a 300 gr. bullet with say 45-50 gr of RE-7 - or half the recommended load for any powder for that matter? Just lower MV? Other negative effects? Pressure problems? Thanks.

Paul

[DBinNY]

Paul, not RB but that light a load of R7 would result in a very low pressure situation and be prone to a lot of temperature sensitivity. You would want at least 63 gr of R7 with a 300 gr bullet for adequate pressure. (RB says 64 but I've had great results with 63 including some pretty cold weather usage).

[jeremylong]

Classic posts of wisdom by RB. I hope his webpage stays up.

[ccchunter]

excellent post