Muzzle Loader Progression

[wilmsmeyer]

Smoothbore flint lock shooting black powder and patched round balls







Rifled barrel, In line, smokeless powder with saboted spire pointed bullets

Filling in the blanks would take me way too long and the progression is complex with gun designs, priming methods, propellants and projectiles. The goal of each step was to improve many individual areas while maintaining safety. Better accuracy, better ignition, cleaner guns, longer down range retained energy/speed, flatter trajectories.

There are some that think that the Savage is too big of a leap in progression....and most of those folks would probably not go afield with a smoothbore flintlock with black powder and patched round balls. So, that means some people have a limit on progression. Where are those limits? Is it with an inline shooting blackpowder and a full bore conical? Or is it OK to use a sub? Why a certain sub? Because it shoots faster? cleaner. Is a saboted bullet OK? Why is that? Full bore conicals shoot OK...why sabots? Is a Number 11 cap not good enough or is 209 primers OK...what about electric ignition? A number 11 cap served everyone very well up until 15-20 years ago. Why go to a 209?

Many argue that muzzle loading is a short range sport, Well how far is short range and who came up with the definition of short range? Is it under 100 yds? If so does that mean 301 feet is long range and 299 feet is short range?

All these points are geared to show that nothing is set in stone and everything regarding any step of progression is subject to a persons opinion. To pick a spot on a timeline of progression and proclaim that the final step is ludicrous.

What I would like to ask anyone bashing the Savage to do is this: After you bash, finish your argument with the exact gun, powder, projectile, sighting method (scope or irons) and the reason you feel that this is where it ends. Show your stripes and not just your gripes.

And don't forget that being forgetful, reckless or lacking ability to use logic mayl cause injury or death to your self or by standers regardless of the muzzleloader you are using.

Also, if any "leading authority" that is paid by another manufacturer to promote a different product......or a person that used to be paid by Savage (but not anymore) makes any claim about anything....take it with a grain of salt....or 70 grains of H4198

[bigmoose]

Wilsmeyer,

70gr's of H4198.......music to my ears

coming soon the cool weather

[whyohe]

progressionis just that progression. we went from ML with cap full bore bullet to BP carterage to breach loading caterage in a short time period. progression is improvement on exisiting item. makes it better.

I still love to shoot my flinter too. but as to choice yes i would choose my savage cause IMO it is more accurate and can shoot a bullet that is MORE efficent at killing an animal. now i do have to say my flinter is a patch and round ball shooter with a 1:66 twist so i cant shoot maxi ball or conicals out of it accurately. can you kill and animal with a RB. sure I'm just aying the newer bullets are better at it so with the progression of ML also come the progression of powder and projectile.

It comes down to IMO is one easier to hunt with than the other. YES or it wouldnt be progression. just my opinion.

[DBinNY]

Wilms hits the nail right on the head. It's all where anybody wants to draw the line. We should all be tolerated for where we wish to draw the line and respect the choices of those who choose to draw the line someplace else. It's a personal choice and people are not identical.

[Richard]

Right on Wilms.......................Single powder, Duplex powders............Triplex powders......................Hmmmmmmm, well maybe two is where its supposed to end? ;D
Richard

[gunny]

I started with my Lyman Great Plains Hunter then got a NEF Sidekick now my Thumbhole Savage . As far as I'm concerned anybody thats slamin the Savage is wastin there time ,last time i checked this was the dedicated Savage board.Gunny

[zakjak221]

Triplex Powders?
Tell me more Rich! ;D,
What Wilms said.

[wilmsmeyer]

Richard, I don't think anyone has ever bashed you for trying triplex loads. What some have done, and rightly so, is suggest that hard core data be collected.....many, many shots logged recording pressures.......many remote firings to avoid the slights chance of an error or injury. I know you know what I mean.

As with any progression, there is a reason for it. A gain to be had...a benefit. But coupled with that progression should be extensive testing to rule out material errors.

There are those that would follow you into a volcano that you don't even know exist...that lurk on this board listening to what you or I say. And what we say can be taken as gospel...when it's not.

I'll even bet that when Savage or any other gun company makes a rifle that even though they know they built it safely....even though it's almost no different than some of their other models...I'll bet they test fire it in a bunkered room with bullet proof glass and a few technicians wearing white gloves and safety goggles peering thru the glass....100's if not 1000's of times....several similar guns...before releasing it for sale.

Progression comes with responsibility and procedural planning IMO. When done properly it's meaningful and useful.

Am I wrong?

[bigmoose]

Wilms,

You are right about the testing proceeder, and with test loads, higher than any load they recommend.

[dannoboone]

This thread reminds me of aircraft progression prior to trial lawyers
and government restriction. This does not include military aircraft.
Some homebuilts were far superior to any made by manufacturers.
Burt Rutan, who made the Voyager, which flew non-stop around
the world made high performance aircraft and sold the plans. He
stopped doing so years ago because of restrictions and stupid
litigation cases in which people would not follow plan instructions.

This thread also reminds me of computer progression. No one out
there is making any attempt to restrict or slow down the
performance of computers. The sky is the limit.....or is space itself
the limit? Does ANYONE see a limit on 'puter progression? Don't
believe so.

Savage is not the top of the line when it comes to ML
progression OR performance. Yet they most certainly had
become a target for those who believe the progression has
gone too far. Perhaps these idiots will back off now that
Coburne has stopped factory production of this wonderful
rifle. But if not:

Look out Swinglock, Richard's Custom Rifles, or ANYONE else
with the audacity to improve the muzzle loader.

[Richard]

Wilms....................Don't get your shorts in a knot!! ;D I was only playin' on the progression thingy to see if I could get a rise out of someone! ;D But you have to admit!.........It is a valid progression even if this board does not condone it.
Richard

[zakjak221]

Rich,

I tried, but couldn't pass it up!
I'll go sit in the corner with my single powder loads. ;D
So if you were fishin, I took the bait.

Mark