Savage 10ML-II with Hornady .50 SST LOW DRAG

[mike10]

Hello everyone, very glad to have found this incredibly informative forum. I have a quick question and my search didn't result in much info.

I just purchased some Hornady .50cal/250gr SST HIGH-SPEED/LOW DRAG with the RED sabots, I couldn't find any XTP's with black magnum sabots. I'm curious if anyone has shot these thru a Savage 10ML-II with ACCURRATE 5744, and if so, how did they perform? Savage has the SST's listed in their operator's manual, but everyone says to use the black sabots. Going to shoot some tomorrow and would like to know what I'm in for.

Good luck to all and thanks for any info.

[shooter]

I never try-ed them but i will bet they will load to loose and not be very accurate you need about 35-40 pounds of pressure when loading.I would get mmp sabot hph12 or hph24. :)Try pushing one through the bore and see how much pressure you have on it.

[Dave W]

Like Marty said, they likely will be very loose. I have shot some in summertime temps with 4759 and they shot OK but they were so loose even in my tight barreled MLII that I would not trust them to ignite in colder temps.

[boarhog]

Mike10,
Welcome to the board!
Try pushing them down the bore without powder to get a feel for how snug they fit. If a bit loose, knurl the bullet a little with a coarse file. Look at the base of the SST. If it has quite a bit of radius on the base, it may tend to blow sabots at smokeless pressures. 5744 is a good powder to try. I suggest starting at about 40 gr, and work up 1 gr at a time. I get good accuracy with one of my 50s at 44 gr. Also, depending on the temp where you will be shooting, be sure to wait about 15 minutes between shots. If your area is below 50*, you might be able to shorten the wait time some. The key is keeping the sabot cool. Barrel heat will soften them and cause them to fail.
Good luck with your shooting, and be sure to post your results.
Boarhog

[mike10]

Man you guys are great, very informative and helpful. Much appreciated.

I should add that this will be my first time shooting this new Savage 10ML. I am a bit nervous since I've never shot a muzzleloader before, let alone smokeless. However, I figure if I follow the manufacturer's suggestions I'll be good to go. That said, I will definitely start with the 40 gr loads and step up from there, thanks boarhog.

It sounds like these bullets are not the bullet of choice. I did buy some TC Shockwaves, .50 cal/250gr with black sabots, but I'm not sure if these sabots are "magnum" (as requested by savage. Do you think I'll have better groups with the Shockwaves? I read somewhere that they are a bit more snug.

One last Q, how do you know when the bullet is seated? Is there a feel you get or something? All I know is that I don't want to load with a gap and cause an obstruction/pipe bomb. I watched Savage's tutorial vids and read the manual but all it said was "to push the bullet down the barrel with the ramrod". I would measure the distance of the bullet and compare to the ramrod but I'm not quite sure how much the powder will compress, I.e. 1/8 of an inch, 1/4", etc.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Dave W]

The SST & the SW are the same bullet, the SST packaged with the 3 Petal E-Z, the SW with probably the MMP HPH 24. You can see the differences in overall dimensions of .452 bullets and sabots here:
dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=9947

Once the sabot/bullet bottoms out on the powder there will be very little compression. Make sure to mark the ramrod with tape or something at the point where the ramrod stops in the barrel when seating the bullet, this is referred to as a witness mark. Make sure to check that the sabot/bullet combo seats to the same depth each time by visually checking the witness mark.

If you have a misfire which is caused by a loose/sabot bullet combo. MAKE SURE YOU RESEAT THE BULLET TO YOUR WITNESS MARK. THE PRIMER EXPLOSION WILL USUALLY PUSH THE SABOT/BULLET OFF THE POWDER COLUMN ON A MISFIRE.

[deadon]

Oct 30, 2010 22:44:05 GMT -5 mike10 said:

Man you guys are great, very informative and helpful. Much appreciated.

I should add that this will be my first time shooting this new Savage 10ML. I am a bit nervous since I've never shot a muzzleloader before, let alone smokeless. However, I figure if I follow the manufacturer's suggestions I'll be good to go. That said, I will definitely start with the 40 gr loads and step up from there, thanks boarhog.

It sounds like these bullets are not the bullet of choice. I did buy some TC Shockwaves, .50 cal/250gr with black sabots, but I'm not sure if these sabots are "magnum" (as requested by savage. Do you think I'll have better groups with the Shockwaves? I read somewhere that they are a bit more snug.

One last Q, how do you know when the bullet is seated? Is there a feel you get or something? All I know is that I don't want to load with a gap and cause an obstruction/pipe bomb. I watched Savage's tutorial vids and read the manual but all it said was "to push the bullet down the barrel with the ramrod". I would measure the distance of the bullet and compare to the ramrod but I'm not quite sure how much the powder will compress, I.e. 1/8 of an inch, 1/4", etc.

Thanks again.

Mike

I always load with the bolt open and after you feel the bullet seat, push for an extra couple of seconds,WITH ALL YOU GOT. The best way to learn if a bullet sabot combo will shoot/ignite is to remove you breach plug and push the combo down your barrel, if it takes two hands and some teeth gritting, your good to go. I have done it countless times on a bathroom scale and combos that load anywhere between 40 and ninety lbs of seating pressure will ignite with book powders. Hope this helps, Rusty

[mike10]

Dave, I have read about the witness mark and was planning on making one. Let's just hope I get it right the first time and don't make a witness mark for incorrect load...lol Thanks for the link too, that picture chart is exactly what i'm looking for.

deadon, when i am testing to see if a bullet sabot combo will work, will I be able to remove the sabot/bullet combo once I push it down or does it have to be shot out? I'm sure this sounds like a stupid question, but I want to make sure it doesn't get jammed. I'm sure once I remove the breach plug I can figure it out...And btw, I like your signature...sounds like something my dad would say.

Basically, it sounds like both these bullet/sabot combos are going to be a bit sloppy. I wished I could have found the XT's with the magnum sabots, but Bassproshop is pretty weak on inventory when it comes to hunting. I'm in Nashville and we don't have a Cabela's for whatever reason...Hell I even tried the Reloader's Bench and they didn't have any either though. If you have any other recommendations on bullet/sabot combos (besides the Hornady XT's with Mag sabots) please shoot them my way, no pun intended.

Thanks again, will let you guys know my results.

[deadon]

Oct 31, 2010 8:42:41 GMT -5 mike10 said:

Dave, I have read about the witness mark and was planning on making one. Let's just hope I get it right the first time and don't make a witness mark for incorrect load...lol Thanks for the link too, that picture chart is exactly what i'm looking for.

deadon, when i am testing to see if a bullet sabot combo will work, will I be able to remove the sabot/bullet combo once I push it down or does it have to be shot out? I'm sure this sounds like a stupid question, but I want to make sure it doesn't get jammed. I'm sure once I remove the breach plug I can figure it out...And btw, I like your signature...sounds like something my dad would say.

Basically, it sounds like both these bullet/sabot combos are going to be a bit sloppy. I wished I could have found the XT's with the magnum sabots, but Bassproshop is pretty weak on inventory when it comes to hunting. I'm in Nashville and we don't have a Cabela's for whatever reason...Hell I even tried the Reloader's Bench and they didn't have any either though. If you have any other recommendations on bullet/sabot combos (besides the Hornady XT's with Mag sabots) please shoot them my way, no pun intended.

Thanks again, will let you guys know my results.

Only dumb questions are the ones you keep to yourself With your breach plug out you can push it on though, you can then also look at the end of the bullet and see if you have buggered it up, not good for accuracy. Some us use a spin jag on the end of our ramrods. Google it. Hope I did not confuse you more, Rusty

[dans]

Load the rifle and after the ramrod comes to a dead stop. Put a lot of pressure on the load. Then I have been taught to strike the end of the ramrod sharply 2 or 3 times with the palm of my hand. This way I am sure the load is down with no air gaps. That second push and thumping has saved me a few times.

[deadeye]

as for the witness mark,colored electrical tape will work fine & can remove & apply a new on if you change loads

[mike10]

Thanks again guys. Really really helpful stuff, especially for an amateur like myself.

I tried pushing down both bullets, the red sabot Hornady's were definitely looser fitting, almost too lose. The Shockwaves fit pretty snug. I think I will start by shooting those.

Last question before I go field test, how tight do I tighten the breech plug upon reassembly? I was given a wrench with the breech plug extension but I've heard the breech plug should only be hand tight...I don't want to over/under tighten. Right now, it's just hand tight without using the "leverage wrench" that fits into the breech plug extension tool. Hope I didn't confuse anyone, you did not confuse me, all very helpful.

Thanks,
Mike

[stubblejumper]

Mike

I think I would use the "leverage wrench" to make sure it is tight but you dont need to over do it. The plug will almost seem to bottom out and stop. MAKE SURE to use anti seize or teflon tape on the threads of your plug AND on the vent liner.

I have shot the ez load sabots with some success but I may have a tighter bore. Snugger is better though. Best of luck and welcome to the board.

[ronc]

Oct 31, 2010 5:01:14 GMT -5 Dave W said:

The SST & the SW are the same bullet, the SST packaged with the 3 Petal E-Z, the SW with probably the MMP HPH 24. You can see the differences in overall dimensions of .452 bullets and sabots here:
dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=9947

Just a FYI. One of the guys in our hunting club bought a new box of the Shockwaves at Walmart and they had a new (to me) yellow 2 petal sabot that I measured at .503. They don't usually shoot reliably or accurately being that loose in our guns. Most of the Savages in our camp shoot best with a bullet-sabot combo that measures .505 - .506.

I have bought a few bags of black MMP long petal sabots and then sort them by size for best fit for a specific barrel, all measured with the bullet you plan to shoot it with. They range from .504 to .507 with the SST and most of them going .505 - .506. It usually will group better when the loaded size is consistent.

Using good bullets that fit snug is a good place to start before trying a lot of different powders. The 250 SST or XTP's have proven to be excellent choices to begin with. Hope this helps.

Ron

[mike10]

OK guys, so I shot a ton today...As you probably guessed, I was all over the place. Probably shot 30-40 times, with less than 15 of those hitting paper. My excuses were, this was my first time shooting a muzzleloader, and I was experimenting with different grains & bullets...LOL Needless to say, I pretty much got what I expected, zero consistency...Anyhow, here are the (rather embarrassing) results:

Setup: Savage 10ML-IISS Camo on lead sled, Nikon Omega scope, Accurate 5744 smokeless powder (41, 43, 44 gr), Hornady SST 250gr/50cal red sabot and Shockwave 250gr/50cal black sabot. Temperature was around 70 degrees (I never checked). Target was at 50 yards for the first 15 shots and then all hell broke loose when I moved to 100 yards.

Started with 5 shots using 41gr and the TC Shockwaves. The first shot was on paper, but 10" right, and 5" low. The 2nd and 3rd shots were (after some scope adjustments) pretty close, maybe 2" left/3" low and 3" left/3" low. After that, I did some minor scope adjustments (few clicks) and the 4th and 5th shot were NOT even on paper. This was really odd...Now either I rocked my scope (which I highly doubt), adjusted too much (which I highly doubt as I still would have been on the paper), or something else happened (barrel too hot/dirty, jerked shot, etc?). I didn't know what happened so I cleaned the gun and shot 5 shots with 43gr. I know I should have stayed with 41gr for consistency, but I was sharing a booth with my buddy, dealing with time limits/whistles, focusing on safety and yada yada. Not to mention, today was merely experimental and I already had 5 vials of 43 gr pre-measured:)

The first shot with the shockwaves at 43 gr was on paper (surprisingly), but pretty far left and way low. The second shot (no scope adjustment) was about pretty far right and high. Not what I am used to, bullets on opposite side of the center....At this point, I was starting to realize that these bullets were not good for this gun...even with the same grain I was not seeing consistency. So then I moved on to the 44gr which I already had pre-measure and also switched to the Hornady SST's/red sabots/250, remember just experimenting...LOL

I kinda stopped recording in my mind by this point, for fear of frustration and taking the fun out, but I do know that my next 5 shots with the Hornady's were all off the paper. After a paperless round, I decided to switch back to the shockwaves at 41gr and was back on paper for a few more shots (still not consistent). By now, my buddy was pretty much sighted in and wanted to move out to 100yds. I didn't want to hold him up, so I started slinging em' at 100 yds. I hit the paper a couple of times with 41 gr, but still zero consistency.

I'm really not going to take much out of this trip today (you shouldn't either) besides the fact that I had fun. Next trip, I will plan to use the Hornady XTP's. Everyone has been out of stock here in Nashville, so it looks like I'll have to order them online.

Once again, thanks for all the advice. I will post my next results once I get the RIGHT bullets...

[mike10]

Hey thanks, Ron. I had terrible luck with the Shockwaves today, although the one's I shot had black sabot. The SST's with red sabots didn't do very well either, they were very loose fitting and I kept pulling the bullet out cos the ramrod was sticking to the red plastic expander tip. I kinda knew I wasn't going to have much luck with either of these bullet/sabot combos, but unfortunately I had to shoot what the store had in stock...

Also, I will take your advice there on the measurements. Do you think that 41 gr vs 43 gr would make a huge difference or does it mainly depend on the bullet? Let me clarify by saying if someone is hitting dead center with 41gr and switches to 43 gr (same bullet/sabot combo), is there a big difference or will their shots vary much?

[stubblejumper]

Mike10

Make sure you are letting your barrel cool sufficiently between shots, IE up to 15 minutes. That was the biggest mistake I made with the smokeless and chased all kinds of other things that I thought was wrong.

Also, wait then load dont load then wait because the sabot will still soften as it sits in the gun.

[mike10]

Thanks, stubblejumper. I was thinking of what you said while I was shooting, thinking I was probably not letting it cool off long enough, however it seemed cool to the touch. Still it seems the longer I waited the more accurate I was.

[boarhog]

Mike,
You might want to consider a Kool Rod. Look in "Tips and Hints". I have sent a few sabots to others, and will gladly send you a few to try. If you have a source locally, I suggest trying the 250 gr Hornady XTP with the MMP Short Black sabot. I think the MMP part # is 50045.
PM me if you would like me to send you a Care Package.
Boarhog

[tdillinger]

I feel so gratefull, I shoot and by the time i load another shot the barrel has coolded down i guess, My set up hits dead on with the first shot through the 10th 11th etc. Dont use a cooler rod, i use loose fitting mmp hph 24 i can push down the barrel with one or two fingers and im getting clover leafs at 100 yds. I sighted my 10ml II with 26 shots to .5 groups at 100 yds. shots 27 and 28 both harvested deer one at just a tad over 100 yds and the secnd 15 to 20 yds. Had the most devastation to body at 100 yd shot? i use the load 250 xtp , mmp hph 24 with 42 grs of sr4759 plastic jug. Plastic jug is gettinge 2400 fps via chrono, oh that is with CCI shor shell primers. I think powder is a liitle hotter than before. my thoughts are its working although I am not liking the weight retention of the .xtp or the expanssion

[mike10]

Thanks boarhog, sending you a PM now:)

By the way guys, I shot a whole slew of those Hornady SST LOW DRAG's today with 43gr of 5447 @ 50 yards. After shooting and letting the barrel cool, I was seeing some really nice groups. If the holes weren't touching, they were right on top of one another. Looks like the heat played a tremendous factor.

Does anyone know how much the accuracy will vary if I switch between 44 gr and say 41 gr? Just curious if it makes a huge difference with regards to precision and/or accuracy. Also, any scope recommendations? I'm not sure I like the Nikon Omega, hard to see at dusk and might not be enough power for those 150 plus shots

[boarhog]

Most guys manage to find a "Sweet Spot" with several powders and bullets. Just have to let your rifle tell you what it likes. At first, a beginner has a lot to learn about eliminating things that do bad things for accuracy. The worst is the barrel heat already talked about. Once you get a system worked out, and find your first "Go To Load", you can begin playing with loads. Some barrels insist on a fairly hot load for best accuracy, and others like it lighter. It just takes shooting to figure it all out. I wouldn't try to get too fancy at first. Start with book powders, and change only 1 thing at a time. One of my 50s likes a 44 gr load of 5744 under both 250 and 300 gr bullets, 45 gr opens the group, and 46 gr blows the sabot. Several board members have reported hotter loads working for them, but they may have a different lot of powder, a tighter or looser bore, cooler temps where they live, etc. Wherever you end up, you can always go back to that "Go To Load" as a control.
Boarhog

[Richard]

Mike.......welcome on board! I am totally surprised no one mentioned using the Harvester Crush Rib sabots???. I would bet you could do all your .50 Savage shooting with just TWO sabots: The Harvester Red Crush Ribs for bullets of .452" diameter and the Harvester Black Crush Ribs for those .458" bullets such as the 300 gr. Barnes Originals (referred to here as BO's) and the 300 gr. Remington. .4575" bullet. Yep! Just a little narrower . I think probably 75% of the .50 shooters use the Harvesters. I have found that several .50 Savage barrels like the diameter of the combination bullet/sabot to be closer to .507" to almost .509". A decent caliper will help you achieve this. Remember, whether your bullet diameter is .452 or .458" You want the combination of bullet and sabot to be around .507+". The Black Crush just has thinner petals than the Red Crush. The reason for the ribs is it allows a tight combination to load easier particularly if your barrel is dirty.
Deadon mentioned about loading your gun on a bathroom scale? In the event you did not understand this? With your breech plug out, get your rifle and sit the butt on the scale.......then try pushing down your bullet/sabot combination and see how much the scale registers? Like was said, upwards of 40 lbs. is where you want to be. You can never seat a bullet TOO tight. Even if you have to hammer the ram rod to get it down. It will not blow up your gun! We have jammed the ramrod against a concrete wall to get "sabot-less" rounds down in our .45's and you would swear the gun will blow up??? No way! And the velocity is only slightly higher than a proper fitting bullet. It should take two hands to seat a bullet.
As far as "wait time" between shots? It will really depend on the temperature you are shooting in. Summertime 80's an d 90's will definitely want 10 min. or so. When it starts getting down in the 50's? Maybe five minutes will do. At 30*, probably only a few minutes. The cool rod (see hints and tips) is a must in the summer if you want to fire continuously. 45 sec. with the cool rod has me reloading immediately after running a patch down the bore.
If you get overwhelmed by all this information and would like to speak to someone "one on one?" Send me a PM and I will give you my number. I got a lot of help from this board when I started and maybe can help you avoid some Pitfalls!
Richard

[bigmoose]

For sabotless shooting I carry a rubber mallet, if a bullet get stuck in the barrel, I have a separate ram rod to beat the bullet down to witness marks, and while it makes no sense at 100 yards, it does not affect its accuracy, I don't know after 100 yards, don't have a range for that distance.
For hunting bullets I am very careful in micing them, not a good idea for a second shoot to be beating on your rifle in the field

[Jed]

If you are not too far away....check out this place:

Midsouth Shooters Supply
770 Economy Dr
Clarksville, TN 37043

I googled it...about 45 min from Nashville.

They should have everything you need (sabots, bullets, powder, etc.) I order a lot of stuff from them.

You can also buy your sabots direct from MMP (www.mmpsabots.com) or Harvester (www.harvesterbullets.com)

I also have some older MMP high pressure short blacks that I would be willing to send you...just PM me.

~ Jed

[mike10]

Thank you for the replies Boarhog and Richard. Great info you have provided here. I really appreciate you guys getting me started. Thank you.

So here are the results from my second round of shooting: After taking back the Nikon Omega and replacing it with a Bushnell 4200 Elite. I forgot to mention in my last post that although I was seeing good groups, the still weren't very accurate. No matter what I did to the Nikon scope, I could not adjust the windage to the left. My shots just stayed in the same spot, few inches to the right of dead center. Since I was having good luck with precision before I changed scopes, I went back to the Hornady SST's, 250gr with the red sabots (LOW DRAG/HIGH SPEED) and shot them with the Bushnell. My buddy (who works at Bass Pro) remounted the scope rings before putting on the 4200 and said they appeared to be crooked prior to. My first shot at 50 yards (with zero scope adjustments) was DEAD CENTER. I could not believe it. Now that said, there may have been nothing wrong with the Nikon and it may have just been the scope rings. However, it still seemed like the windage was not adjusting properly.

More on the results: First I shot 3 rounds at 50 yards and all were touching the bulls eye:) I then moved to 100 yds. At 100yds, I shot 6 relays (3 rounds/relay). I was within a fist-sized circle of the bulls eye on almost every shot. I barely made any adjustments to the 4200, only a few clicks right and 1 click down. After the adjustments, I was slinging em' right on top of each other. It was great and I really enjoyed shooting the Savage and I must say, it's more accurate than any of my rifles or shotguns.

Oh and by the way, I took the gun out hunting this weekend and shot a pretty nice sized doe at 85 yards and also a coyote at 75 yards. Both shots were right on target, just behind the shoulder and both animals were harvest at the point of impact ;D


Now that I have the smokeless figured out, I need to move to black powder as I plan to shoot BP when I go to Michigan on Nov 15 (no smokeless allowed). Do you think I will have to fuss with my sights much when switching to black powder? Any recommendation on grainage/pellets, etc? Just curious what you've all gathered from your longstanding expertise.

[rangeball]

I would us Blackhorn 209 as a BP sub.