Hunting with XTP Bullets need something different

[tdillinger]

I like the accuracy i am getting with the 45 cal 250 xtp with 50 mmp but they expand wat to much. I have shot 2 Does with them this year and the entry hole is 2.5 inches and . I shot each on quartering shots one at 100 yds or so and today at 20. Is there a harder bullet that one can recommend. I prefer a bullet that holds wieght but not so much expansion its more forgiving if you hit a shoulder etc just dont want to waste meat. Thankfully all my shots were placed correctly and i had no loss just huge holes.

[artjr338wm]

Although I have not killed any deer with them, the fallowing bullets have been proven by members here to kill deer extremely well and hold together better than XTPs.

Hornady 300 grain .458 HPs

Hornady 325 grain .458 FTXs (Flex Tip)

Remington 300 grain .458
I do not know which is the tougher bullet of the two Hornady's, but I know based on information I have gotten from previous posts I have made that the Hornady .458 is a tougher bullet than the Remington .458 based on the feed back of members here telling me their personal experences with both.

The above three were all desined for use in the 45/70 and velocities of around 2300fps IIRC.

I recommend these because I have seen all of them available OTC at Cabelas and they are about as cheap a bullet as you can get that will hold up at 10ML-II speeds. There are other bullets that also work extremely well like bonded SWs or SSTs as well as others whos names escape me at the moment, but they all cost quite allot more than the three I mentioned.

I also know I did not recommend any bullets under 300grns, that is because #1 you did not specify the load you are using and #2 IMHO there are few, very few bullets that weigh 250 grains I feel can hold up to the velocities the 10ML-II is capable of when shot into deer, especially at close range under 100yrds.

If money is not a issue then there are other bullets in the 245-275 grain weight class that also work well, but all approach or exceed $1 each in cost.

Hope this helped, let us know if you are comfortable with spending the $$$ on a lighter bullet that will hold up.

Arthur.

[nic58]

You might want to try some of the Barnes Spit-Fire T-EZ flat base all copper bullets. It sounds like they might fit the bill for what you are looking for in a bullet.

www.barnesbullets.com/products/muzzleloader/spit-fire-t-ez™/

[whyohe]

here is an older post with sectionals shown. these are .458 diameter.

dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=4940

now if i remember right the hornady 300grn XTPs hold together better in .452 diameter. I have some barnes all copper BOATTAIL bullet not flat base. some have has hrd time getting them to shoot accuratly especially at distances over 100 yards. I can give you some to try if you like. here is my comarrison to the SSTs.

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=4835

and here are alot of comparissons

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=3370

[mike3132]

In the weight you stated Barnes 250 Expanders, 240 XTP Mag or 245 Barnes Spitfires. MY preference is the 250 Barnes Expanders using the supplied sabot. In my ML I with 46 grains of old lot 4759 its going 2375 fps and hammers deer. Ive killed 20-30 deer with them in my Savage.

[screwbolts]

tdillenger: IMHO there is no better projectile than the Harvester Hard Cast, they will shoot great and you will get complete penitration. You won't need to drive them at light speed for them to be deadly. If you were so inclined to shoot them with modest charges you will be able to eat right up to the Boolit hole.

I have 2 molds for smooth sided .452 boolitz that are designed to be shoot in sabots. 300 gr. and 330 grainers.

Long live the cast boolit! I find no need for a expensive fancy machine made bullet .

You can get the hard cast from Graf and sons, in packages of 20 with their sabots.

If you want lighter boolitz Harvester also offers them as .430 in 280 gr. with sabots. They also shoot very well.

IMHO, I do complete understand that some just need, and will only shoot the latest copper or brass colored gizmo, just to be happy and impress there peirs.

:-) :-)

IMHO If you give them Hard cast a try, you will never turn back.

I do realize that I have recommended a heavier boolit than the XTP .


Ken

[tar12]

Well Screwbolts not all of us are trying to impress our piers with the latest shiny bullet.My concerns in bullet selection have nothing to do with how they "shine"or what Joe Blow thinks but rather accuracy and performance at ranges that primitive cast bullets can only hope to achieve.Cast bullets do work for their intended purpose of relatively short range shooting but they cant cover all aspects of field conditions with ranges up to 300 yds the way I want it done. I have chosen to move out of the stone age with modern technolgy that the cast bullets can not match.

[tdillinger]

Oct 22, 2010 20:16:37 GMT -5 mike3132 said:

In the weight you stated Barnes 250 Expanders, 240 XTP Mag or 245 Barnes Spitfires. MY preference is the 250 Barnes Expanders using the supplied sabot. In my ML I with 46 grains of old lot 4759 its going 2375 fps and hammers deer. Ive killed 20-30 deer with them in my Savage.

Thanks a lot of good info...

[tar12]

Oct 23, 2010 11:32:19 GMT -5 tdillinger said:

Oct 22, 2010 20:16:37 GMT -5 mike3132 said:

In the weight you stated Barnes 250 Expanders, 240 XTP Mag or 245 Barnes Spitfires. MY preference is the 250 Barnes Expanders using the supplied sabot. In my ML I with 46 grains of old lot 4759 its going 2375 fps and hammers deer. Ive killed 20-30 deer with them in my Savage.

Thanks a lot of good info...

The Expanders will flat hammer deer! I do not remember the weight of the ones used in the 12 ga slugs I was shooting but the carnage was unblievable!

[chuck41]

Oct 23, 2010 10:10:30 GMT -5 tar12 said:

Well Screwbolts not all of us are trying to impress our piers with the latest shiny bullet.My concerns in bullet selection have nothing to do with how they "shine"or what Joe Blow thinks but rather accuracy and performance at ranges that primitive cast bullets can only hope to achieve.Cast bullets do work for their intended purpose of relatively short range shooting but they cant cover all aspects of field conditions with ranges up to 300 yds the way I want it done. I have chosen to move out of the stone age with modern technolgy that the cast bullets can not match.

Shouldn't cast screwbolt's suggestion aside too quickly. A well-designed hard cast bullet is certainly not a "stone age" tool. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating them for 1000 yd matches, but they will certainly collect game at any range that I and most of the rest of us here can actually master. The truncated cone design is a proven game getter even without significant expansion and they can be fired safely and accurately within sabots at pretty dog gone high velocities.

Unfortunately I can not personally use them because there are no sabots available for my 40cal deerslayer and at over 2000fps muzzle velocity they will likely leave lead deposits if fired sabotless.

Regardless of the name of RB's website, shooting a muzzleloader, even an ML10, is really not quite the same thing as "rocket science" and most of us do not really need that level of precision or its attendant expense. Good hard cast "boolits" could be a very reasonable choice for many of our smokeless folks as an alternative to the XTP style without their explosive expansion and undue meat damage.

If I had appropriate sabots available I would love to use a 200-230gr hard cast bullet in my 40. It would probably be fabulous at the under 200yd shots available where I hunt. In fact one which worked very well in my 35 Rem a few years back with only slightly reduced loads would likely be fabulous as a saboted load in my ML10 40cal and I still have the mold buried around here somewhere. If only there were some 40/357 sabots available.
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0004482028

[tar12]

Chuck,
I have shot them before in my BP days. I surely felt handi-capped shooting them. I am not saying they will not kill deer as they most certainly will. I have never had the accuracy with cast bullets as I have others out of muzzeloaders.

[artjr338wm]

IMHO, if one is going to shoot cast bullets as their primary, go to hunting bullet, then what is the point of shooting them out of a 10ML-II? Kinda like buying a Ferrari F40 and then using it as a pick up truck.

Cast bullets again IMHO, are far better suited for BP and BP sub velocities and the MLs that are by virtue of the purpose of their design meant to shoot them, why bother with them in a smokeless ML?
Not much point in buying a 10ML-II and only ever using a BP sub in it, as far as I'm concerned same go's for shooting hard cast bullets out of a 10ML-II. Will they work? no doubt they will, but why on earth would you want to use them out of a 10ML-II?

There are dozens of other far better suited and designed bullets for us to use, many of which are no more expansive than a H/C bullet.

A owner of a 10ML-II can shoot any proper sized bullet out of it they wish to, I just fail to see the reasoning behind buying a ML designed to shoot smokeless and handicap and drastically limit your performance envelope buy using one of if not THE least suitable bullets to shoot out of it.

Again this is just my opinion FWIW.

Arthur.

[dans]

I shoot the Barnes because they just flat work. Compared to hard cast, they penetrate as well, they break bone as well, and they EXPAND for a bigger wound channel. These are the features I want in a hunting bullet. I can also shoot them fast and use a slightly lighter bullet. The cost of a bullet is small compared to the cost of everything else on a hunting trip. If I am shooting at the trophy of a lifetime or any animal I want to kill, I shoot the best bullet available not necessarily the cheapest. I am not being a snob when I say I shoot Barnes bullets. I shoot them because they work.

[screwbolts]

Gentlemen:

Thank you for adding your opinions, as I clearly stated in several places, I was stating my opinion.

I believe that all of our opinions will help tdillenger find the answers to his questions.

Yes I do certainly understand that I have a deep passion for cast boolitz and hunting with equipment that I build and boolitz that I make.

I did give my opinion of why some use what they use, If I in some way pointed a finger at any certain individuals it was certainly by accident. Sorry for the struck nerve, and the pain it may have caused, if anyone thought I was singling them out, it was not my intention to point to anyone. It is my opinion, and I clearly stated such.

Being in the Dark Ages some times has some advantages of being able to see the advancements in all fields of projectiles, not just the advancements in Machine made projectiles.

IMHO, As some may live only in the age of magnumitus, they may not be able to see the complete applications available for a given tool. I have found that the passionately cast and used Hard Cast Boolit ( that are specifically designed for use in MODERN sabots and bores of a rather fast twist in the rifling) with a wide Metplat is a very useful projectile. Being these described boolitz were designed to be shoot with sabots they open up a whole new field of applications that are far above what some remember as being possible using plain Pb (lead) and muzzle loading rifles.

"I shoot then because they work" is why I shoot my hard cast. They not only just "work", they work reliably and very well, never leaving me with a feeling or having an inadequate boolit. I know the boolit that is on my charge is capable of cleanly harvesting anything I care to send it threw.

Kindest regards,

Ken Hall

Central, NY

[wilmsmeyer]

Screwbolts is a great guy. He sent me 100+ 330 gr hardcasts as well as 100 240's (I think). No charge. The 330's were very accurate with light charges of 4759 and I could hit a softball size target at will out to 150 yds. Haven't shot the lighter version as much.

They ABSOLUTLEY have an application for the SavML. Speed is not the only benefit of the savage. This is a gun that can be tuned down for kids, women and men with recoil intolerance. The 30 gr of 4759 and this 330 grain bullet kicks lick a .243 and shoots lights out to 150 without a ton of holdover worries. Killed 4 does with it last year and was very impressed with penetration and killing power. Basically a very heavily loaded .44 mag or more.

They are not the end-all, be-all but they are great for many things

[artjr338wm]

I guess in a rather round about way, one could look at the Barnes all copper ML bullets as equal to a hard cast bullet, except unlike a H/C it expands. So in short you get the best of both worlds, unequaled bone shattering penetration AND tissue devastating expansion.

Thanks to Ken/screwbolts info, this thought just dawned on me.

[tdillinger]

Never shot a cast bullet before, how is the expasion and wieght retention?

[GMB54-120]

Oct 24, 2010 12:18:25 GMT -5 tdillinger said:

Never shot a cast bullet before, how is the expasion and wieght retention?

It depends how hard they are made. Anything over about 18 hardness wont expand much but its the metaplate that causes the shock trauma.

These are my 401-260gr (resized) Miester hardcasts with 18 hardness and about 1950fps. It basically duplicates the 40/XX old west bullet ballistics.

Miester .401 260gr cast RNFP Retained 234gr Expanded OD .654-.496
i39.photobucket.com/albums/e151/DewdVTX/MuzzleLoader%20bullets%201/50and54%20Expansion%20results/Meister260grRNFP2.jpg

i39.photobucket.com/albums/e151/DewdVTX/MuzzleLoader%20bullets%201/50and54%20Expansion%20results/Meister260grRNFP1.jpg

Even at only 1950fps it will out penetrated almost anything else ive shot in a sabot. Last year i used a LBT hardcast 45-300gr. The deer walked right under me and i shot him through the spine and it blew through him like butter. Needless to say he dropped like a sack of potatoes.

[tdillinger]

will it handle 2400 fps and what 50 cal sabot would be used?

[GMB54-120]

Oct 24, 2010 12:54:28 GMT -5 tdillinger said:

will it handle 2400 fps and what 50 cal sabot would be used?

If you mean the 401-260gr, ive never had any luck with them in a 50x40 sabot even with BH209. That was in a 45cal ML with a Harvester CR 45x40.

The 45-300gr hardcasts i use a Harvester black Crushrib because cast are usually a bit over sized vs jacket bullets. Ive never shot them over 2000fps so i would have no idea if they will handle 2400fps.

Lead can and will deform in flight if pushed too fast. The softer the lead the slower it can go before it deforms in flight.

Right now the best bang for the buck are Nosler Partions from www.wideners.com. They are half price and its nearly impossible to make them fail. Under $25 a box of 50 is a steal for a premium bullet.

[screwbolts]

Oct 24, 2010 12:54:28 GMT -5 tdillinger said:

will it handle 2400 fps and what 50 cal sabot would be used?

Yes!! the Harvester Hard Cast or mine will handle 2400, the question is can you take it? The short black is what I use, Harvestor sells them with the long black You will have to work with slower powders than 4759 to get 2400 and keep the pressure in the safe range for the 10MLII.

Using the Hornady # 7 manual for a quick reference:

The Hard cast I refer to that I cast from the LBT mold weight 333 gr. with a sabot you have a projectile weight of 347. Please allow me to round that off at 350. This manual list the top velocity for the Ruger #1 45/70 at 2200 FPS with a 350 pill. I can assure you that will be a hand full. wanting 2400 FPS with a 350 grain projectile for deer IMHO is ridicules.

2400 fps w/ a 350 gr. projectile is the one of the top loads listed for the 458 win mag. sounds like fun.

It has been my experience with the 333 gr LBT in SBH sabots, that they duplicate the velocity listed in the above reference manual for the 45/70 cartridge.

Now the 450 marlin isn't capable of 2400 with a 350 gr projectile.


Have fun be safe.

Ken

[artjr338wm]

I have shot almost 90 290 grn TMZs at around 2350-2400fps and I can tell you that load makes my .338wm seam pleasant to shoot by comparison.

FWIW, I do not shoot my 245 SFs at 2600+fps or my 290TMZs at 2350+ fps because I want that much knock down power. I shoot them that fast for three reasons.
#1-That speed gives me legitimate 0-200yrd capability with no need for hold over. I just aim at the center of a deer's chest cavity and shoot. Same go's for my 245SF and 250TMZs at around 2600fps.
#2-At that speed and using these bullets I will reach a deer's vitals no matter what the shot angle is.
#3-I can do it and I see no reason of any kind not to.

Thanks screwbolt for educating me about to days hard cast bullets. I did not think they could reliably handle 2400fps, now I know better. IIRC back in 1992, I attended a ML elk hunting seminar that after words I talked to a professional hunter who had killed 4 big NM bulls (all over 300") using Harvester Hard cast lead bullets shot out of his Knight ML. He told me during a 1on1 conversation that he could afford to shoot any ML bullet he wanted to for elk and he only used Harvester H/C lead bullets. Said it was the only ML specific bullet at that time he could reliably break both shoulders of a big bull elk by using the high shoulder shot. He was not BTW, plugging them during his seminar so I gave his opinion of them much legitimacy. I chose not to try them as I am not a fan of the high shoulder shot, I have no doubt it works superbly as advertised, I just prefer the larger target and IMHO higher % kill shot the heart/lung area offers VS the high shoulder shot.

I do not bother with ML loads out of my 10ML-II at velocities much below 2200 fps because I can do that with my Encore and BH209. BH209, & 250/XTPs & 260/Harvester PT Golds shot out of my Encore give me itcy-bitcy 100 groups, and more than adequate out to 200 for deer hunting.

Be well screwbolts,
Arthur.

[Tarheel]

tdillinger-How fast are you driving the XTP? I've had good luck, actually great luck with them on top of 44grs of 4759

[tdillinger]

I feel my accuracy and speed are fine but since you asked its about 2300. I just dont like the expansion and wieght retention of the bullet. I dont have a problem with the accuracy at all, the xtp shoot very well. I want to a bullet with expansion and high retention of wieght. for example with Remington copper solid slugs they will do 2x expansion and 100% wieght retention. I think the velocity on those are 1900 or 1800.

[8ptbuk]

Anybody tried the Barnes 45/70 250 gr. bullet it's .458 diameter and should work well with a BCR sabot . Been thinking of trying it myself. Might be exactly what tdillinger is looking for.

[dans]

Yeah those .458s should work.

[rangeball]

Oct 25, 2010 8:07:37 GMT -5 8ptbuk said:

Anybody tried the Barnes 45/70 250 gr. bullet it's .458 diameter and should work well with a BCR sabot . Been thinking of trying it myself. Might be exactly what tdillinger is looking for.

tdillinger, I have some of these and the BCR I could send you if you want to try them. I bought a box way back when and never got around to trying them after I found the thors shot so well for me. If they shoot for you they should be an excellent terminal performance choice.

PM me if interested.

[tdillinger]

Oct 25, 2010 13:32:52 GMT -5 rangeball said:

Oct 25, 2010 8:07:37 GMT -5 8ptbuk said:

Anybody tried the Barnes 45/70 250 gr. bullet it's .458 diameter and should work well with a BCR sabot . Been thinking of trying it myself. Might be exactly what tdillinger is looking for.

tdillinger, I have some of these and the BCR I could send you if you want to try them. I bought a box way back when and never got around to trying them after I found the thors shot so well for me. If they shoot for you they should be an excellent terminal performance choice.

PM me if interested.

Sorry for the late response Yes i would like to try those BCR... very kind of you to provide. I will send you pm

[tdillinger]

Oct 25, 2010 8:07:37 GMT -5 8ptbuk said:

Anybody tried the Barnes 45/70 250 gr. bullet it's .458 diameter and should work well with a BCR sabot . Been thinking of trying it myself. Might be exactly what tdillinger is looking for.

Thank you<