Sabot issues at the range.

[smokepole50]

I have been trying to get my new 50 cal Accura to group tight and I have yet to find the right combination. All the bullets I have shot so far ( 275gr PBE, 300gr .458 RHP and 250gr Horn FTX bullets using both Harvester BCR and MMP HPH-24) have shot min of dead deer at 100 yards but I am seeing shot stringing. The first shot is usually dead on 2.0" high at 100 yards. The second shot will be 4.0" high and the 3rd shot maybe 6.0" high. It was windy yesterday but I saw very little wind drift.

I have to say I was using full house loads of BH209, as in 85gr weighed but I was also dry patching between each shot. I also would dry brush with a .28 gauge bronze shotgun brush before each new bullet/sabot combo and sometimes within each load testing string.

So I am confused............ I have solid steel Waren bases and rings on my Accura and I am using a new Nikon BDC 3x9 scope so I don't think I have a issue there since I have no left/right movement other that what I impart with my shooting. I know from years of shooting BP that every BP rifle won't shoot the upper end loads but I figured with this new Bergara barrel, BH209 powder and various combinations of sabots and bullets I could work up a load with this rifle that would be at the top end and accurate enough to shoot out to 200 yards consistantly.

It appears to me that I am getting plactic fouling in the barrel that is increasing pressure, recoil and possibly additional velocity that is causing this vertical stringing. Have others noticed this?
Do I need to SOLVENT patch and brush between shots at the shooting range to eliminate all fouling while trying to develop a upper end load that will shoot a hole's touching target???


Smokepole50

[GMB54-120]

I never clean at all on the range with BH209 even with tight sabots. I shot my GMB54-120 this weekend with upto Rem 50-385gr CLHPs and 120gr of BH209 in MMP/Barnes red 54x50s. I shot Barnes 300gr .458 SOCOMs with the same charges in plain Harvester 54x45 sabots and have no plastic fouling.

My Accura 45 shooting light weight 40cal bullets over 2300fps in MMP tans showed no plastic fouling either.

You may have a slightly rough barrel and i always use a good bore polish once on mine before hitting the range. I seldom use it again and use Montana Extreme Copper Cream once in a while to make sure the bore is spotless and mirror smooth/shiny. Normal cleaning is just plain old Hoppes #9 or the Benchrest formula.

IMO BH209 shoots best on a fouled bore, roughly after 3 shots the groups tighten up and load a bit easier too. Montana Extreme bore conditioner seems to help also with first shot POI variances after a few treatments.

My worst vertical stringing was caused by a loose front ring and/or a hot barrel.

[mike3132]

Smokepole,

Without speed of each load its hard to judge what is going on. I suspect the speed is decreasing instead of increasing. When speed decreases usually POI gains in height and is shown by velocity decreasing.

I would do as suggested and not swab the barrel and see how it shoots. Also use your chronograph and see if speed changes.

If you were getting plastic fouling in the barrel it would show up as little black specks when you swabbed with solvent.

I'm sure others on here with more experience shooting BH209 will give some good advise. Mike

[Deleted]

Really sounds like what my 30-06 was doing today. First shot was perfect, next 2 moved up 4 to 7 inches. Turn out my rings were just junk. Replaced them and was back in business.

I'd try the hph-12 sabot.

[smokepole50]

Well I have not had the chance to get out again but I hope to shoot the rifle again Sat. I pulled the scope off the rifle and used my Wheeler Eng. scope alignment fixture, like I should have used to start with, and found that one of my bases was not aligned just right. Straightened that issue out and lapped the Waren rings. I was suprised how much I had to remove to get most of the I.D. polished, especially with what I thought was a high quality ring. Re-installed the scope and she fits like a glove now. The scope goes from being able to rotate in the rings to not being able to rotate in just a 1/4 turn of the top ring screws.

I have to try not dry patching as well to see it that helps.

Smokepole

[smokepole50]

Well I took the rifle out again last Sunday. I started off with a mild load of 100gr of BH209 and a Rem 300gr .458 bullet and a BCR sabot to establish a go to load. I had re-adjusted the scope bases and lapped the rings so I needed to re-sight the scope and I wanted to do it cheap, hence the 300gr Rem HP bullets. I started off at 25 yards and hit the target a bit high with the first shot. I then back up to 65 yards and shot the second shot w/o cleaning and placed it right beside the first shot. I am happy at this point. I moved back to 100 yards, set up my chrongraph and shooting table. With the 3rd shot, still loading 100gr vol measured I hit the target high so I lowered my elevation adjustment on the scope. The velocity was 1894 fps. Shot 4, still without cleaning the bore at all dropped about as much as I expected it to with the elevation adjustment and measured 1892 fps. Shot 5 hit right beside shot 4 and measures approx. 1870 fps. After this every thing went out the window. I still have not cleaned the rifle but velocity continued to drop with each shot up threw the 8th or 9th shot when I gave up on the 300gr Rem bullet and switched to the 250gr Horn FTX bullet and cleaned the rifle by dry patch and brush. The 250gr Horn basically shot poorly as well. It seems the more I shoot the rifle the worse it shoots and the velocity slows down and the bullet hits higher on the target. My last two shots with the 250 Horn. bullets, BCR sabots and 100gr BH209 hit at about the same place on two different targets but both shots were higher then they should have been.

One thing I did notice that I thought was a bit strange based on the fact that people have said the CVA barrels are closer to .500 then some of the other makers. I bought some of the .500 Horn 300gr bullet to see if it would shoot sabotless. I loaded the rifle with 100gr BH209 and placed the bullet at the muzzle and it slide half way down by it self. It stopped at a snug spot but went down to the powder with no resistance at all. I tapped the muzzle against a piece of plastic on the ground and it came out just like it went in. So much for that idea.

I am just about ready to call CVA and ask for a new barrel....

Smokepole50

[grouse]

smokepole50
I would order a pack of the Harvester short black sabots. I think you will see a huge improvement. As far as CVA, well i guess it's irrelevant.

[rangeball]

How long are you allowing the barrel to cool down between shots? Sure sounds like barrel heat is softening the sabots causing lowered velocity and poor accuracy.

Also have you considered knurling those .50 hornadys for a tighter fit?

[Deleted]

Accura - Sabot Loads - Sabotless .500" 300gr Horn FTX.
frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/the-shooting-range-f16/more-sabots-in-the-cva-accura-hornady-ftx-hornady-xtp-t1243.htm

frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/the-shooting-range-f16/sabot-day-accura-mag-loads-t1236.htm

[smokepole50]

How much barrel heat is to much. It never got more then barely warm. I did not walk to the target every time I shot the rifle but I did have to measure out each load, trim back the longer Harvester BCR sabot to the ogive of the bullet, load the bullet and prime the rifle. I am sure that took at least five minutes because I was talking to my cousin the whole time and he was doing some shooting as well with BH209 that I also had to measure out for him.

I feel confident I will get this rifle dialed in. I guess I thought it would be a bit easier and cheaper then it has turned out to be. I have a back up in my T/C Black Diamond so if I am not ready with the Accura by Sat then the Black Diamond will go to the woods for another year.

Smokepole50

[Deleted]

no such thing as cheap muzzle loading.

[smokepole50]

Correction.........there is no such thing as cheap modern muzzle loading. This CVA is my 5th ML since 1976 and it is only the conical bullet versions that are expensive to shoot/work up a load. My 54 cal Great Plains rifle can hit a soda can at 50 yards all day long with cheap BP and round balls and it did not take me $100 worth of bullets, sabots and powder to figure out what load it liked. Maybe I should take that out this year for some Doe slayin.

Smokepole

[smokepole50]

Grouse,

I have some of the Harvester short black sabots, I will give them a try tomorrow.

I also ordered a sample pack of the Lehigh 250gr 45 cal bullets when I ordered my vent liners. What sabot will work well with them?

Rangeball,

Yes I will try swaging up the .500 bullets but I am running out of time if I am going to use this rifle this Sat when the season opens. I have a couple of good files, if I can get a third can of BH209 from Gander I might try shooting some for accuracy next week when I have time. If the bullet is riding the lands now how much should I swage it up, .502, .503, .504???

Smokepole

[GMB54-120]

Most of the best groups ive seen from the Accura 50s is with the GoldDots/Harvester Smooths. I havent seen any groups with .458s although in my Knights i usually use the MMP Orange.

Ron swears by the GoldDot 44-270 in a Harvester smooth Green and 105gr BH209.

FG
Did you ever get to try any of those 50s i sent and did you try a fiber or felt wad yet on the FTX?

I took a few shots with my Extreme 50 on a fairly fouled bore with the 50 FTX but i didnt have them knurled up enough for my first test. They hit the target. My bore runs about .502 and the Rainer 50-335gr hp fits better with less knurling. Im going to try them next.

[Deleted]

Havent had any time to shoot the FTX. I did shoot the Speer .500 300gr and they load tight as sin but accurate as hell. 2 out of 3 were touching and the 3rd shot which was the tightest to load, hit 1 1/2" higher. No wad either, good stiff recoil.

The other 50's you sent wont fit any of my rifles.

I got a report on my forum, the guy tried the FTX at 130 yards and was hitting the same hole LOL. He too was shooting an Accura.

I got a new toy in today and will see if those other .500's you sent me will fit in this one. Just have to wait for the Gun Shield to dry!

[smokepole50]

44 cal 270gr Speer's........I'll have to give them a try if I can find any. Midway and Graf's are sold out. It must be a good bullet. I like 44 cal bullets in a ML and I have some of the Harvester Green sabots, maybe Gander has some for sale.

FG........Are you using your factory ram rod to load those sabotless .500 bullets? Could a base wad like a trimed sabot base be used under the .500 bullet swaged up to .501 or .502 so it is easier to load? I guess the next question is would the bullet swell to fit the bore if the pressure from the powder was not acting directly on the bullet?

Smokepole

[GMB54-120]

The Speer 50-300 should be good to about 1900fps. Thats how fast AA loads their Beowulf GoldDot ammo but it is made for 50 A&E really.

Its a nasty lil bullet though and held up great in my media tests.

They load the Rainier 335s a tad slower but not much.

My test with the FTXs was very cautious and i only tried 90gr of BH209. IMO they needed to be SMACKED harder with a fiber or Nitro wad. The wad seems to help "wipe down" a tiny bit of fouling and powder before you load the bullet too.

If you have a reloading press the Lee sizing die is cheap enough to get 2. One for under sizing and the other to even out the knurling once you find the best size.

smokepole50

Ive used a sabot with the petals trimmed off as a sub base on flat based lead conicals. Proceed with caution. Mine shot fine but i could tell pressures jumped vs only a felt wad by looking at the primers.

[grouse]

Oct 26, 2010 19:35:40 GMT -5 smokepole50 said:

Grouse,

I have some of the Harvester short black sabots, I will give them a try tomorrow.

I also ordered a sample pack of the Lehigh 250gr 45 cal bullets when I ordered my vent liners. What sabot will work well with them?

You should be just fine with the harvester short blacks with most bullets.

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2010 20:39:48 GMT -5 smokepole50 said:

FG........Are you using your factory ram rod to load those sabotless .500 bullets? Could a base wad like a trimed sabot base be used under the .500 bullet swaged up to .501 or .502 so it is easier to load? I guess the next question is would the bullet swell to fit the bore if the pressure from the powder was not acting directly on the bullet?

Smokepole

I have used my factory ramrod to seat them before. Most of the time when i experiment i use my range rod.

Ive heard of people cutting the pedals off a sabot and using it under a conical. I've never done it as i mainly shoot powerbelts and thor conicals.

As to pressure being able to swell the bullet into the rifling while the sabot is behind the bullet, i guess you could drill a hole in the center like a powerbelt so you get some gas up and under the bullet.

I always shot the sabotless FTX with 90-100gr Blackhorn209

GM54120 - Heres the new shooter i got in today. I will check out how those other .500's fit in this bore, if at all.

CVA Accura V2

[rangeball]

Oct 26, 2010 19:35:40 GMT -5 smokepole50 said:

Rangeball,

Yes I will try swaging up the .500 bullets but I am running out of time if I am going to use this rifle this Sat when the season opens. I have a couple of good files, if I can get a third can of BH209 from Gander I might try shooting some for accuracy next week when I have time. If the bullet is riding the lands now how much should I swage it up, .502, .503, .504???

Smokepole

Whichever size lets you load them with about medium pressure.

[smokepole50]

I found some of the 270gr Speer Deep Curl .44 cal bullets at our local Gander Mt. They look promising and sicne I already have some of the harvester green sabots I'll be ready to test out that load tomorrow. I just hope I don't run out of BH209 before the season starts. Gander is sold out.

Smokepole

[smokepole50]

FG.............

"I got a report on my forum, the guy tried the FTX at 130 yards and was hitting the same hole LOL. He too was shooting an Accura."

Is this a 50 cal sabot less bullet you are talking about here?

GMB54........

"Ron swears by the GoldDot 44-270 in a Harvester smooth Green and 105gr BH209."

Who is Ron and what rifle is he getting these good results in with the 270 GD and Green Harvester sabots

Thanks, Smokepole50

[GMB54-120]

Ron is on 2 other ML boards and has a V1 Accura 50. He also makes modded CVA plugs with or without a liner.

I cant remember his groupings but he has taken deer with the GoldDot 44-270 a few times and its his "go to" bullet in several guns.

I like the GoldDot 45LC 250gr at mild-moderate speeds and the 300gr AKA DeepCurl for a bit more penetration. A few guys call them the poor mans Partition because they retain weight pretty well with very reliable expansion.

[hunter]

smokepole.
The next trip to the range with a cool barrel I would try the 458 remington load you have on a cold barrel. Try not to let the barrel get warm, waiting at least 10 minutes between shots, maybe 15 min. if the temps are above60-65 degrees.

[Deleted]

The .500" pistol bullet for the S&W 500.

I just use them bare back in my Accura as they are snug enough to hold in place and shoot great.

[jaybe]

Smokepole:
Well - it's Saturday. I'm wondering 3 things:
1. Did you go ahead and use that gun - and if so, what load and bullet?
2. Did you see or shoot anything?
3. If you first shot was always right on, what's wrong with that?

[smokepole50]

Well I had a shot at a nice buck at about 150 yards and did not have the time to tell how how wide he was. My Dad has a rule that you have to mount any buck you kill on the mountain and he better be at least ear wide so I pasted on him but I think I should have pulled the trigger. Hopefully I will see him again on Monday.

Now I am sure you are asking how could he hit a deer at 150 yards with a ML that won't shoot. Well, I took Friday off work for one more evening of bow hunting and a cold morning of range time. To make a long story short my new Accura is shooting about a 1 inch to 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with the Remington 300gr .458 bullets and Harvester BCR sabots using 84gr weighed BH209. It also likes the 270gr Deep Curl Speer bullets with the Harvester Green smooth sabots. I tried the Short Black Harvester sabot with the .458 Rem 300gr but it loaded so tight that I actually slightly bent my ram rod pushing it down the barrel so I gave up on that one. The 270gr Speer shoots about a inch higher at 100 yards but I think it might be a good canditate for pushing a bit faster once I get some more BH209. I am running a bit low on BH209 and the only place that has it wants 36.00 a can for it, $38 OTD. I am hoping Gander will get some more in before the season is out.

The Rut is taking off here in VA so hopefully I will have some pictures to post, Does for sure, but hopefully a nice 17+ inch 8 or 10 pointer as we have 5 or 6 caught on game cams.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone here gave. I am still amazed at how much barrel "Temperature" has an effect on fine accuracy in a ML. Just a small change in barrel temp. makes all the difference.

Smokepole50

[GMB54-120]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone here gave. I am still amazed at how much barrel "Temperature" has an effect on fine accuracy in a ML. Just a small change in barrel temp. makes all the difference.

Glad you found what works in yours and yes barrel temps are extremely important. The faster you push the sabot the more sensitive it seems to become.

You are using pretty hefty loads or BH209. I usually max out at about 110grs by volume in my 45s and 50s. My 54-120 though loves 120gr by volume and a Barnes 458 300gr SOCOM with a very long cool down.

Did you use the load data Ron uses or 84gr weighed?

BTW another good semi affordable 44cal bullet is the Hornady 265gr Interlock or FTX made for 444 Marlin.

[smokepole50]

I started out with a 80 gr load of BH209 and established the 300gr Rem. BCR load, bumped it up to 84gr to cheack accuracy and then tried the 270 Speer at 84gr weighed and it grouped just as well at 100 yards as the 300gr Rem, just a bit higher. I shot the 300gr Rem/84gr BH209 load yesterday at 200 yards using my Nikon BDC reticle and the second circle. I hit directly over the Bullseye about 6 inches high. At 100 yards with this load I am grouping about 2-2.5 inches high. I probably need to adjust down to 1" high at 100 yards and that might drop the bullet down perfect for a 200 yard zero with my second BDC circle. Ran out of time before the season started and powder is running low. Maybe I'll adjusted it down one day this week and check it again at 200 yards. It would be great if it works out to 150 yards for my first BDC circle and 200 for the second BDC circle with a 1-1.5 inch high setting at 100 yards.

Smokepole