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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 13:28:49 GMT -5
Whether 200, 300 or 600 a bullet with BC even at .35 cuts wind estimation error in half.
At .2 bc 10 mph wind drifts at even 400 are in the 3+ feet range. Cut that in half and it is at least approaching usable in mild wind conditions.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 21, 2011 13:38:15 GMT -5
Whether 200, 300 or 600 a bullet with BC even at .35 cuts wind estimation error in half. At .2 bc 10 mph wind drifts at even 400 are in the 3+ feet range. Cut that in half and it is at least approaching usable in mild wind conditions. You think like me! Better see a doctor quick!
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 21, 2011 13:40:31 GMT -5
I'm with SW and Edge, There will always be a market for high end, high preformance bullets, If a gent is hunting 50 miles from his home, than maybe its not justified, how about a gent that saves and dreams of a once in a lifetime hunt, and get a chance at the trophy of a lifetime, don't you think that extra insurance in the form of a dollar more a bullet is worth it to him. Go to any major sports show and watch gents talking to outfitters, an see the look in their eyes, You can almost hear their minds working, I CAN SAVE FOR THIS HUNT IN TWO OR THREE YEARS. Premium bullets yes. Why do we get fine rifles made, buy Pac-Nor barrel, we want the best. My Ball rifle out of the box is a shooter, and I know after getting advice and load info, I can take any animal walking this good earth with it, but does that stop me from looking and wanting a rifle like my RB Special .....no
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 15:45:46 GMT -5
after much thought and seeing what the 325s are doing I would love to see Bob do the .40 bullet even if it was in the 250 grn range, the higher the bc the better.....Bill
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Post by Jon on Mar 21, 2011 19:56:40 GMT -5
Bigmoose how does it feel to be spoiled? Or should I say luck enough to have been involved with what I consider one of the inovator of smokless? He never quit he was always looking for better safely. Which has probebly saved a lot of newbeys like my self from getting hurt or even worse. Jon
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Post by Dave W on Mar 21, 2011 20:39:07 GMT -5
jeremylong, do you drive a Rolls Royce Perhaps I was not clear on my point I see the sabot as the culprit to not achieving MOA accuracy and not the bullets...but perhaps that is just my interpretation. To me, taking a premium bullet ( a bullet that costs 4 times as much as say a FTX ) and shooting it at relatively close range does not seem to make sense. IMO, a 250 FTX sized properly and with the correct load shot sabotless will beat any sabotted bullet in 8 out of 10 rifles.
Now if the 40 caliber is meant for a 40 calber rifle that is a horse of another color and say yes that makes sense! IMO, did I say that this was IMO edge. Mind sharing this load and how does it do at 2-300 yds?
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Post by Dave W on Mar 21, 2011 20:44:03 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time?
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 21, 2011 20:51:01 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? That did cross my mind.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 20:54:27 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? That did cross my mind. Have thought that too! I would like better BC but not at terminal performance cost!
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Post by Dave W on Mar 21, 2011 20:59:55 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? That did cross my mind. For me, dead is dead, style points are meaning less but many here seem to have a different opinion on bullet performance than I do. Just another point to ponder.
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Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 7:18:12 GMT -5
Mind sharing this load and how does it do at 2-300 yds? No specific load. 9 years ago I used the 250 XTP very reliably at 200 yards and it was not as accurate as I can shoot the 45 sabotless. How do the SST, SW, FTX do at 200 yards: dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=1721If my shots were regularly going to be past 200 I'd probably look to a 300 grain bullet. If you expect 250 as your common shot then the $2 bullet may make sense for you. I suspect that the 325 sabotless will be the better bullet...but you can judge for yourself. edge.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 7:50:16 GMT -5
we will never know how well a .40 bullet will work unless you gents that are interested ring Bob Parkers chime and coax him in to building the .40. he told me when I talked to him it was definately doable but the demand has to be there. we all know the main people that will be interested in this bullet are the guys on this board so feel free to call and talk to him about it....Bill
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 22, 2011 14:33:37 GMT -5
Dave W wrote:Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? Have thought that too! I would like better BC but not at terminal performance cost! After thinking about this more, which is worse, great bullet/bad hit, or good bullet/good hit?
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Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 15:03:41 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? I wonder what the lower limit is for the .40 Barnes copper. The Accubond lower limit is 1800 fps for reliable expansion. That does not mean it won't work below 1800, but your results may be less than expected. I would suspect that an all copper bullet would be at least as prone to this based on its higher strength material. Two holes are going to kill, but a deer can run a fair piece with a bullet that behaves similar to a FMJ. Now 300 yards is not too far but with most loads the velocity may be getting fairly low. I think that at longer ranges the lead jacketed bullets will start to outshine the all coppers. edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 15:14:41 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? I wonder what the lower limit is for the .40 Barnes copper. The Accubond lower limit is 1800 fps for reliable expansion. That does not mean it won't work below 1800, but your results may be less than expected. I would suspect that an all copper bullet would be at least as prone to this based on its higher strength material. Two holes are going to kill, but a deer can run a fair piece with a bullet that behaves similar to a FMJ. Now 300 yards is not too far but with most loads the velocity may be getting fairly low. I think that at longer ranges the lead jacketed bullets will start to outshine the all coppers. edge. I don't know how true the statement but Ty at Barnes told me to expect reliable expansion down to approx 1000fps. This is the biggest reason I have been trying to get start off up to above 2900. Even with MV of 2900 the energy at 350yds is down to 950ft/lbs and at about 1480fps. I am thinking this is about max useful range in calm conditions with a bc of just .19 as most have stated. Have not shot them this far yet to see what rapid deceleration causes.......yet! At least they are still sonic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 15:14:58 GMT -5
I would agree, past 300 I would question the judgment of using the bx. i cronoed a 200 sst last year at 200 yds and it was just under 2000 fps, 1989 if I remember correctly and it had a starting speed of around 3000. that would put the 195 bx in questionable territory @ 300....Bill
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 15:19:48 GMT -5
I would agree, past 300 I would question the judgment of using the bx. i cronoed a 200 sst last year at 200 yds and it was just under 2000 fps, 1989 if I remember correctly and it had a starting speed of around 3000. that would put the 195 bx in questionable territory @ 300....Bill Yes at 300yds this puts the 195bx at about 1650fps and about 1200ft/lbs. I am thinking with the bx that starting off over 2900 would be paramount for 300yd usage.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 22, 2011 15:32:29 GMT -5
I don't know how true the statement but Ty at Barnes told me to expect reliable expansion down to approx 1000fps. Same as he told me a few years ago.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 22, 2011 15:44:29 GMT -5
Jon,
One of my many regerts in life is that I didn't make a trip to spend a day with Rick, being a bum, I had all the time in the world to do it. When I called him from the field to tell of the day's game sighting, he was really into it. In 07, my Moose wasn't down 15 minutes, when I was on the phone, telling him we did it again. I treasure his memory
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 22, 2011 15:45:57 GMT -5
Sat phone, no phone booths in the Alaska Range.
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 22, 2011 19:48:56 GMT -5
Its hard for me to think clearly now, you see.....Iam in love with a certain 45 cal 327 grain thats got the perfect figure, she's available and proven. Seriously, out west several staes have 45 caliber min for deer and 50 for elk, Ray
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Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 20:32:46 GMT -5
I don't know how true the statement but Ty at Barnes told me to expect reliable expansion down to approx 1000fps. SNIP. Strange, that was what they said about the Expander! That thing has a hollow point about 1/4 inch across.....hard to believe that the spit-fire expands at the same velocity! Of course Hornady told us that the 250 XTP was good even at the highest velocities ;D edge.
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Post by Richard on Mar 23, 2011 7:19:42 GMT -5
I think this all comes down to dollars and cents! The guy who is doing his hunting under.........say 250 yards (which I would imagine is probably 90% of the shooters that visit this board), is not about to spend $2/bullet to do what $0.50 or less/bullet can do just as well AND with terminal performance as well . With that said, do you think Mr. Parker is going to spend the $$$ required for the dies and tooling he needs to satisfy a hand full of smokeless shooters? As a bullet maker, I would not? We would need someone like Deadeye, who is very passionate about these bullets to take the bull by the horns and get set up and start making them? Richard
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Post by spaniel on Mar 23, 2011 11:17:08 GMT -5
Curious as to how many guys will use a jacketed $2 bullet that does not perform like a Barnes bullet, meaning minimal meat damage and two holes every time? 200SWs have performed very well for me over the years. They shine at long range and I know from experience they will expand to velocities only reached at ranges where even small winds make shooting at game foolhardy. I know Barnes has a following here but they're no more perfect than any others, and an all-copper would NOT be my choice in a long range bullet. While I don't pretend one bullet represents overall performance, the only Barnes I ever shot a deer with failed. The only thing not to like about a .40cal high BC Parker bullet is the price. I like to shoot what I hunt with and at $2 apiece it's a bit steep. I remain to be convinced that Bob would not make more money by dropping the price a bit and making up for it in increased volume. As for sabots ruining accuracy, if 1-inch groups are bad accuracy I'm happy with it anyways. Sure 0.5-MOA centerfire accuracy in a ML would be nice, but even at the longest ranges I have considered with a ML it is not a necessity for making ethical shots.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 7, 2011 12:32:49 GMT -5
Don't let this thread just die>
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Post by fishhawk on Apr 7, 2011 13:00:07 GMT -5
I think it's time for someone that knows Mr. Parker to show him how much this has been discussed. Or maybe someone knows a bullet maker that will work with us.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 7, 2011 13:08:39 GMT -5
I think it's time for someone that knows Mr. Parker to show him how much this has been discussed. Or maybe someone knows a bullet maker that will work with us. I emailed them link to this and a couple of other threads on here.
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