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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2010 15:53:07 GMT -5
I took the liberty to call Bob Parker this morning and talk about a high Bc .400 bullet similar to the 325 .50 cal he recently introduced and this is what he said.
Its possible BUT it takes a lot of time and funds to r&d a new bullet and IF he made one it would likely be in the same price range as the new 325 ( ouch).He wanted me to gauge interest among you gents as this bullet would be directed at a very small market/ mainly .45 smokeless shooters and there are several around here but as you know we are the few and the proud.
So i have thrown the ball on the court so you gents kick it around for a while....Bill
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 11, 2010 16:15:13 GMT -5
How much is the 325 50cal? If it's much more than a Barnes BX (around $.80) I'll probably pass.
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Post by Al on Oct 11, 2010 16:24:21 GMT -5
think it was $2ea
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Post by Dave W on Oct 11, 2010 16:28:33 GMT -5
Yep!  |
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 11, 2010 16:45:32 GMT -5
Yep! Ummm yeah, I don't make enough to justify that. At that price, it'd cost me more to shoot my MZ than it would sabots slugs out of my shotgun.  |
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Post by spaniel on Oct 11, 2010 17:46:53 GMT -5
I'll pay a buck, $1.25 at the highest. I would love to get them but that would make it double the price per shot of any gun I shoot.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2010 18:30:03 GMT -5
yep, way too expensive for me too. thats the reason for the savage to begin with, those 2-3.00 slugs are killer. well one of the reasons anyway
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 11, 2010 19:32:39 GMT -5
those 2-3.00 slugs are killer. well one of the reasons anyway That and they don't do this.   |
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Post by chuck41 on Oct 11, 2010 19:39:31 GMT -5
$2.00 each? That's just for one? Not a box? Hmmmmmm. Makes the XTP sound a lot better to me.
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Post by sw on Oct 11, 2010 21:18:57 GMT -5
I would pay that much for a bullet; but before passing judgment on my being a spendthrift, etc just consider. Many of us have quite a bit in our guns already. We pay a fair amt for each shot anyway. I no longer shoot my 40 just for the fun of it. I achieved my goal: a very accurate, fast , long range load with well determined impact points out to past 300yds. I arrived at my goal, period. I have a very accurate 300+ yd MLer for hunting. It is my 40 cal 10-ML2. I also have a 45 that will do nearly the same thing. Would I pay $200 for 100 bullets and go out and shoot 30-40 of these to sight-in and now add 50-100 yds effective range and have 60-70 to last for the next few years? You bet. Shooting a $2 bullet will add maybe 30-50% over what a lot of us pay already, if Barnes or SSTs/SWs are being shot. So if an extra $100 would get smaller groups and add 50-100yds range for a few years of hunting, the price would be well worth it to me. Many of us already have $1,000-$1,500+ in our modified rifles/scopes already. Another $100 to enhance the range at least 25% or more is a pretty low cost, IMO.
Hillbill, you can tell Bob, I would go 100 or more bullets.
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Post by boarhog on Oct 11, 2010 23:22:53 GMT -5
I have often said that the bullet is the cheapest part of your hunt, and probably the single most important. If bullets were $10.00 each, that would still be so. I would like to try a few before ordering a bunch. I stocked up on SSTs and then found they have too much radius on the base to use.
Boarhog
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 11, 2010 23:26:50 GMT -5
Shooting a $2 bullet will add maybe 30-50% over what a lot of us pay already, if Barnes or SSTs/SWs are being shot. 30-50%? I see that a little differently. Obviously, on just a straight bullet comparison. SST's ~$.50=+300% BX's ~$.80=+150% On a total load comparison (rough estimates, but I believe they're fairly close). Primer: $.05 Powder:$.25 Sabot:$.12 BX: $.80 Total=$1.22=+60% if a $2 bullet is used That being said, I do see your line of reasoning. I actually considered that line of thought too. But for me, I'm not a good enough shot to consider anything past 250 yards in the field at this point, so a higher BC bullet doesn't buy me anything that the BX and SST can't already do for me. |
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Post by spaniel on Oct 12, 2010 5:26:04 GMT -5
You know, I would probably use this in my blackpowder gun as well, depending on twist requirement. I'd probably try some and use them for hunting if they worked.
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Post by jeremylong on Oct 12, 2010 19:06:06 GMT -5
All bs aside as cool as they look, I would have to try ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 20:23:04 GMT -5
Bob said a 225-250 grn bullet like we are talking about would take a faster twist than the bp croud is shooting and he ask what twist the pacnor boys were shooting.1-22 was my reply, he said that should work. he said the bc of the 325 was.409 so I would think the .40 would be at least that. that would make a huge difference past 300 yds, something to ponder...Bill
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Post by sw on Oct 13, 2010 7:18:33 GMT -5
Shooting a $2 bullet will add maybe 30-50% over what a lot of us pay already, if Barnes or SSTs/SWs are being shot. 30-50%? I see that a little differently. Obviously, on just a straight bullet comparison. SST's ~$.50=+300% BX's ~$.80=+150% On a total load comparison (rough estimates, but I believe they're fairly close). Primer: $.05 Powder:$.25 Sabot:$.12 BX: $.80 Total=$1.22=+60% if a $2 bullet is used That being said, I do see your line of reasoning. I actually considered that line of thought too. But for me, I'm not a good enough shot to consider anything past 250 yards in the field at this point, so a higher BC bullet doesn't buy me anything that the BX and SST can't already do for me. We're in agreement. I was in a rush when I posted that. Normally, I am very analytical, but this time I just wagged it. Actually, I have a supply of 200SSTs I got for appx $0.10 each(Blems, the 1st year they came out). I really protect this supply. A more accurate bullet helps all to increase range. It is so important to practice in as close to actual conditions as practical. |
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Post by spaniel on Oct 14, 2010 10:36:19 GMT -5
Bob said a 225-250 grn bullet like we are talking about would take a faster twist than the bp croud is shooting and he ask what twist the pacnor boys were shooting.1-22 was my reply, he said that should work. he said the bc of the 325 was.409 so I would think the .40 would be at least that. that would make a huge difference past 300 yds, something to ponder...Bill It would, a lot of us do shoot 1-22 twists, and I'm sure I would shoot some I just could not afford to do all of my shooting with that. I assume he's worried about his payback period on the tooling. I hope he's considered the price/volume trade off. At $2 a bullet, I would buy enough to sight in, test my drops, and once that is established I probably would only shoot about 20/yr of them ($40 gross for him). If he cut the price in half, I'd probably shoot 3-4 times as many of them as I could justify more range time with them ($60-$80 gross for him). I believe the break point for most people is in the neighborhood of $1/bullet. Volume will decrease rapidly as you increase over that. IMHO due to increased volume payback time would not be much longer (if at all). This is with my outsiders' view of the process, I have no more than book knowledge of bullet manufacturing from when I looked into rolling my own ($$$). |
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 20, 2011 21:40:28 GMT -5
I thought I would bring this thread up again after what the .45 325 grain Parker has shown for long range results. Anybody changed their minds on such a bullet?
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 7:35:32 GMT -5
I would pay that much for a bullet; but before passing judgment on my being a spendthrift, etc just consider. Many of us have quite a bit in our guns already. We pay a fair amt for each shot anyway. I no longer shoot my 40 just for the fun of it. I achieved my goal: a very accurate, fast , long range load with well determined impact points out to past 300yds. I arrived at my goal, period. I have a very accurate 300+ yd MLer for hunting. It is my 40 cal 10-ML2. I also have a 45 that will do nearly the same thing. Would I pay $200 for 100 bullets and go out and shoot 30-40 of these to sight-in and now add 50-100 yds effective range and have 60-70 to last for the next few years? You bet. Shooting a $2 bullet will add maybe 30-50% over what a lot of us pay already, if Barnes or SSTs/SWs are being shot. So if an extra $100 would get smaller groups and add 50-100yds range for a few years of hunting, the price would be well worth it to me. Many of us already have $1,000-$1,500+ in our modified rifles/scopes already. Another $100 to enhance the range at least 25% or more is a pretty low cost, IMO. Hillbill, you can tell Bob, I would go 100 or more bullets. Yes........what he said. Bullets are the cheapest thing we buy when looking at the big picture. I wouldn't even flinch at $2 bullet if they have the right kind of BC and flight characteristics. I think this bullet would need to be in the 225-240 gr range. The .45 brings to the table the first real opportunity to build a higher BC rifle type bullet for a muzzleloader. Sooner or later this will come to pass as more and more word gets out as to how good these guns can shoot. The bullet maker that has the foresight to see this and develop the right kind of lighter weight bullet will be in the drivers seat. The 325-27 whichever it is while being a good bullet and a good thought is going to be shoulder killer or create the need for muzzlebrake and much more bore pressures. A bullet with BC in the .37 - .40 range that is a true .400 diameter will could very well make .50 setups like the Bad Bull, Ultimates etc a lot less desirable. |
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Post by edge on Mar 21, 2011 8:31:34 GMT -5
This would be a tough call for me!
I see the new 327gr .45 bullet as a great addition because it is full bore diameter. For long range accuracy I think that sabotless can't be beat at this time.
Personally I do not see the great majority of sabotted bullets reaching the accuracy levels where a truly high BC bullet is needed!
If there were a sabot capable of consistently producing sub moa results then a high BC bullet becomes a necessity for those longer shots. IMO, for 200 - 300 yard shots a $2 bullet is not needed as there are plenty of bullets that will get the job done.
edge.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 21, 2011 8:48:40 GMT -5
I was thinking that besides saboted in a .45, what it could do sabotless in a .40. What do you think of this, McGowen has a .392/.400 1in18 6groove listed. With a full form Swinglock die made from the drop....
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 9:05:38 GMT -5
IMO, for 200 - 300 yard shots a $2 bullet is not needed as there are plenty of bullets that will get the job done. edge. I would like to see the list of plenty as I have only found one, the Barnes is the only bullet I have been able to shoot with enough accuracy to make even a good mid range bullet, and it has BC only slightly better than a brick and about equal that of a 70's model Volkswagon VW. There is a much longer list of the saboted bullets that won't shoot. Good high BC bullet will help the BP and BH209 guys as much as it would us so the market is not as narrow as one would first think. If I had some good bullets then Edge could send me a couple thousand of his pvc sabots. ;D Seriously I would buy $2 bullets today if they were available that produce what I need. Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 9:12:18 GMT -5
No way for me....I'm perfectly satisfied with the 195 Barnes or the SST that shoots MOA out to 300yds and has proven to be a very effective deer killer at the same....My Savage is on par with any centerfire that I've got in the safe, accuracy wise and killing wise...Why would I want to pay $2.00 a bullet to lob down range.
Zen
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Post by edge on Mar 21, 2011 9:32:27 GMT -5
SNIP There is a much longer list of the saboted bullets that won't shoot. SNIP. I would have to ask you Why won't they shoot? Is it your rifle or your components? I did NOT mean that everyone can shoot a wide range of bullets, but most will find a good shooting bullet and stick with it! I suspect that many different bullets work for different people! In centerfire rifles some bullets work better than others also! If you have a bullet that works accurately then that is what you would use, at least that is what I would do  IMO, many ML shooters try to tell their rifle what load they want instead of listening to their rifle. Yes, 60 grains of N120 or 4198 can be great a great load, but if your rifle doesn't like it then move up/down and then move on. Too often I have seen folks with the same recurring problems when they just need to try something else...IMO. Personally 1.5 MOA is fine out to 300 yards if you have the energy and most with their 45s are getting that...at least from what I've seen here. edge. |
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 21, 2011 10:44:58 GMT -5
Edge - I can not believe you posted that.. lol. Who dont want more choices? Besides when does improved bc not help at 300yrds even if its at 1.5MOA. And too your point, what if they actually really shoot better than the two basic bullets that we shoot in 40 right now? Maybe it wouldnt but lets give it a shot.
The 325's are selling like crazy. Bob probably has to use a trailer truck to stuff the cash in to make his deposits at the bank each week. Why? Because the 325's work even at $2 a pop, guys are going farther than ever with the bullets even when there are other bullets less than half the price that can almost do as good. I can understand less of a market with the 40 cal bullet but gee wiz how much money does it take? Come on Bob. 225 grain 40 cal BE. Heck use big thick sabot and sell it to the 50 cal bp guys too!
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 10:48:14 GMT -5
Edge - I can not believe you posted that.. lol. Who dont want more choices? Besides when does improved bc not help at 300yrds even if its at 1.5MOA. And too your point, what if they actually really shoot better than the two basic bullets that we shoot in 40 right now? Maybe it wouldnt but lets give it a shot. The 325's are selling like crazy. Bob probably has to use a trailer truck to stuff the cash in to make his deposits at the bank each week. Why? Because the 325's work even at $2 a pop, guys are going farther than ever with the bullets even when there are other bullets less than half the price that can almost do as good. I can understand less of a market with the 40 cal bullet but gee wiz how much money does it take? Come on Bob. 225 grain 40 cal BE. Heck use big thick sabot and sell it to the 50 cal bp guys too! Exactly..... ;D |
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 21, 2011 12:00:00 GMT -5
I can compensate for the drop at range, but the wind drift of the current .40 bullets kill me. 10mph crosswind at 300yds with a .190bc =20.6" of wind drift! It's 40" at 400yds! I can guess the wind speed, but with a bullet that blows around this bad one would need flags all the way to the target to be even close.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 21, 2011 12:02:08 GMT -5
This would be a tough call for me! I see the new 327gr .45 bullet as a great addition because it is full bore diameter. For long range accuracy I think that sabotless can't be beat at this time. Personally I do not see the great majority of sabotted bullets reaching the accuracy levels where a truly high BC bullet is needed! If there were a sabot capable of consistently producing sub moa results then a high BC bullet becomes a necessity for those longer shots. IMO, for 200 - 300 yard shots a $2 bullet is not needed as there are plenty of bullets that will get the job done. edge. Who's the guy that spends hours building sabots to shoot high bc bullets? |
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Post by edge on Mar 21, 2011 12:14:56 GMT -5
jeremylong, do you drive a Rolls Royce  Perhaps I was not clear on my point  I see the sabot as the culprit to not achieving MOA accuracy and not the bullets...but perhaps that is just my interpretation. To me, taking a premium bullet ( a bullet that costs 4 times as much as say a FTX ) and shooting it at relatively close range does not seem to make sense. IMO, a 250 FTX sized properly and with the correct load shot sabotless will beat any sabotted bullet in 8 out of 10 rifles. Now if the 40 caliber is meant for a 40 calber rifle that is a horse of another color and say yes that makes sense! IMO, did I say that this was IMO edge. |
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Post by edge on Mar 21, 2011 12:22:03 GMT -5
Who's the guy that spends hours building sabots to shoot high bc bullets? But not for 200 yard shots! If I am in the woods I will often take the Handi rifle and shoot a 250 FTX! True, I often take my deer much closer than I can shoot these bullets, but with shot opportunities to 600+ yards I would like to be ready. edge. |
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